Countering destro raze

[footpatrol2]

Sorry for the double post. But I want to address the assault SW.

I am going to list out a single target RvR group comp that is amazing in ORvR.

Big shoota squig group. Take 3 big shoota's SH's and 3 shaman's 1 of the shaman's can be dps whatever. Morale pump up the big shoota squig group. All 3 Big shoota's have the Lots of Shootin' m4. If I can get my Big Shoota squig group to m4 thats a 2400 x 3 = 7200 20 ft instant damage morale bomb. 20ft of instant death. We killed a group that was full health that poped ID with this. You have probably experienced this group if you play NA time.

This group is based on ST damage. But the m4 is AoE...
This doesn't fit into the communities perception of what you should be taking...

I only care about what is possible. I don't care what people say.

The group comp I listed is delicate and extremely easy to destroy so there is counter-play. I don't have any tanks in the group to maximize morale gain. If one of the big shoota's die it destroy's some of the morale bomb. Which screws over what I am trying to do. If you pressure me hard as a warband I might have to pop Squig Goo (uncleansable AE snare) to save my warband which tears away from my morale bomb I am trying to build.

What does this group do while it is building up to a morale bomb? Destroying Single targets via assist. I can target the opposition's leadership, I can strategically single target destroy major morale bomb components of my opposition to dampen the morale bomb I know is coming at me. I know who/what they are by looking at my combat log. If I have a 15 point boss spec BO with waaagh ability he can debuff corp by 378 AE. Waaagh is a outgoing effect so it doesn't require to be in the same group. I can have the dps shaman slot in hurts don't it and lower toughness by 240 ST. Target tanks 378 corp debuff plus 240 toughness debuff + 3 poisen arrer's = tank killing group.

This group only costs me 6 player's out of 24. I still have 18 player's to build AoE around for RvR.
This group is a glass cannon artillery piece for my warband that if you don't ST kill the big shoota's will take a chunk out of you.
This group is straight up situational thou. It is amazing in a keep defense. OK in a keep offense. Ok to Semi bad in a roaming situation.

Just swap spec's dependant on the situation your in.
Assault SW is roughly in the same boat. It is situational. Last night on the third floor of the keep defense in riekland How well would Whirling rage m4 have worked? How mobile are your AM's in a keep defense?

Player's identify with a spec of the class and don't shift. Don't. Identify with the class and what it is capable of doing. Swap spec's/renown/gear dependant on your situation. There are spec's that are situationally good as in niche scenario's. Swapping spec's to a pre-known guild build fast gives you more tactical flexibility. But everyone has to know wtf they are doing which is a organization/coordination thang. All about pre-planning.

Incorrect morale gain rates super screws with the balance in ORvR which is why I harp on it SO much. I love this game. I want everyone to have a fair chance. There were super coolio tricks you could do at one time for organized play but requires the game to roughly be restored. M4 15 point builds are suppose to be a viable option.

@dansaran
This is partly to you but also to the community that is reading it.

[dansari]

Ok. That's all well and good, except that shamans and shs can passively morale pump on the move and your perceived order equivalent cannot. Additionally, that group can slot Run Away and be completely capable of kiting and taking care of itself more effectively than your order equivalent.

Additionally, SWs do not have an instant, ranged morale like Squig m4. To get the same capability you'd need to run assault SWs with whirling rage, and how do you expect to apply whirling rage with no tanks to guard or peel your SWs?

I understand that you know greenskin comps very well and I respect you guys for bands you put together, but I think you're off the mark with this one

[footpatrol2]

Obviously you guard the assault SW with m4 if your doing that.

The m4 Lots of Shootin don't matter if they dead. Outrider patrol happens before Lots of shootin m4 anway.

The more anyspec of SW you bring the more 100ft 20ft AE morale bomb you bring. That's not the case with Sh's. You HAVE to SPEC into the m4 for SH's to have a instant damage morale bomb which guts builds. You don't have to do that with the SW. LOTS of value there.

So... look at what I'm doing. I am fully embracing the weaknesses I have and fully exaggerating my strengths to offset my weaknesses.

With High elves it is Anti-kite.
I can roughly do the same thing I'm doing with greenskinz with high elves. The strengths and weaknesses are different so it would operate slightly differently but whatever. I ran order High Elf comps on AoR just like I am doing here with greenskinz along with dwarf comps.

I am just trying to share my perspective.

The power level of the assault SW is tied to the morale 4 it has. You can increase your overall warband morale bomb by having a assault SW. That assault SW is basically worth 2 SW's with outrider patrol but requires a guard/heals/morale pumps if you want a early morale bomb. Pump up the assault SW and layer on outrider patrols or other morale bombs. The assault SW might only be useful in a keep defense/offense. Which is fine. Reaching your m4 naturally should be a option, unfortunately this is not the case on this server like it was on AoR.

It is roughly the same thing with the Stabby SH's. The power level of the Stabby SH is tied to the morale 4 it has. The strength of stabby SH's is the bad gas, how tanky it can get, and the morale 4. These spec's are not just about what the spec can do but also about the m4 it has which usually gets ignored by the community. The power level of a spec is tied to the m4 also not just the ap portion of the spec.

If you don't see value in this coolio. Don't use it then. I see value and I would incorporate it but I don't think like everyone else.

[Dabbart]

Spoiler:

[quote="dansari"]I would love to give SM a morale drain because I think it would make them warband viable, but that's just my opinion and when I made that suggestion Penril laid the hammer on it haha. No way in hell do SWs or engies need a ranged morale leecher.

Edit: I also think the "use AM morale pump" argument is way overhyped. The only place you can really use it is when you're stationary, during a keep siege. Sure, you can maybe take two AMs and slot them in ranged groups, but they're paper and immobile. Whereas RP and WP are tougher and have more mobility, in a mobility meta.[/quote]

For the record, this isn't entirely true. AMs can be quite tanky when played for it. Not as tanky as RPs or WPs mind.

The trick, is to have the 2nd healer in each group aware that the AM will ONLY be ST healing. 1 AM can effectively keep 3 people at M3 on CD during a fight. But the 2nd healer has to be ace. I always found my AM far more Kitey than my Z, just because I knew my Z could tank the DPS longer... I learned how to prekite I guess. But, the AMs ability to pump morales is dependent on your positioning. Other than very specific situations, it'd be almost as worthless as some of Footpatrol's Racial Balancing ideas... (jk)

However, I **** hate morale bomb tactics*. So I would only ever take that tactic for a specific keep defense, then respect afterwards. So I would be for any and all nerfs to morale damage or counterplay to it.

*Bombing is boring to me. Red Guard and INQUISITORS I ran with on Live did plenty of it. It's just timing and following the WB leader. But Bombing with active abilities at least takes a little bit of skill. Sitting for morales then smashing W, Morale Hotkey when told to do so... Not so much.

[footpatrol2]

So... one of the Leading arguments I have on racial groups is you USED to get 30% morale faster then mixed. Which mean's you get your morale bombs/morale tricks/defensive morale cycle's 30% faster then mixed comps. The racial morale's sync up to produce nasty combo's.

I kinda can't be against morale bombs because it is part of the leading argument. Nor do I want to be against morale bombs. Morale bombs to me are a very fun aspect of this game. I don't want to take away a main tool away from organized play to counter larger number's then themselves. There is a ton of counter-play on organized play vs organized play on how it relates to morale bombs/defensive morale cycle's/morale tricks.

So... I kinda hate that I have taken the road less taken. I am such a outsider in my perspective. But I have experienced a lot of what I talk/write about and there is just too much evidence for me to turn my back on it.

[Dabbart]

I entirely understand your point. I just disagree, for the reason stated above. I can't, because I hate Bombing.

To the counter-play, there can be. But it's far more efficient to just counter bomb harder. Doesn't change the fact that morale damage negates the vast majority of the actual game. No stat other than Wounds is relevant to morale damage on either side.

But to each their own.

[Landgoat]

Everything looks good on paper, i don't see why Order shouldn't try it.

However, once Phalanx breaks orders front, game over; or better yet.. phalanx just walks past order's front xD

[normanis]

at moment its easer to be on destruction side all work always doo phalang and ather premades (tup for example). as pug u can sit at bo and join only if inner is hitted. also destruction look way better and have less nerfs. and all look better on papper, because papper can take enithing.
and i whant to see kiter am who need cast all time 2 sec heal and u need to stay to cast it.while rest wb is far away and u are melted.

[albree]

nice videos

i especially like how you call them "order zergs" when order clearly has aao for 90% of the first video and roughly equal numbers in the second, with a touch of aao for a minute probably indicating slightly fewer order there as well.

off-topic but hard to resist pointing this out.

[Manatikik]

Everything looks good on paper, i don't see why Order shouldn't try it.

However, once Phalanx breaks orders front, game over; or better yet.. phalanx just walks past order's front xD

I think one thing that you guys overlook every time you talk about this (especially foot): getting everyone to buy into this strategy 100% is **** hard. I'm not saying this is an excuse or anything but i think BTC overlooks it because by nature the only people who join you already buy into the whole greenskin thing (so in turn im sure they're more likely to buy into the crazy theorycraftin that footpatrol comes up with constantly ). Again, not saying this is an excuse but a big problem with order atm (especially since we don't have any dedicated WB guilds or racial ones during NA).

As Dan also said; i think BTC undervalues the Gobbo tactics (in the same way we value them, i know you guys value them ) in how **** annoying it is to try to chase you guys down, cc, and kill half your WB and automatically put that same survivability thought into AM even though they can't do run-n-gun nearly as well as shammies due to this.