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AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#31 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:24 pm

live4treasure wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:12 pm Alright, so small change since the last post was written is that Balance Essence's ability to self-heal when using tranquility stacks has been upped significantly. The survivability has become a little better than it was before, although the fence you have to jump over to go from force stacks to tranquility stacks is still very real and I still often die in that small window. With the balance essence change it isn't as bad as it was before, but unfortunately, there's still no real place for DPS AM in group play. The damage just isn't good enough even if you sacrifice a reasonable amount of your survivability to get it and non-existant if you don't. It's gotten a little better for solo roaming most certainly, albeit I wouldn't recommend solo roaming with full int talismans or with the usual 2 merc/4 domi setup.

Hopefully in the future something will be done to boost the damage potential of DPS AM/Sham. It's my belief that they don't need a huge push to make them viable for group play, just enough that they will be capable of pressuring the enemy enough to justify their shortcomings. I've thought for the longest time that a 20% crit damage modifier added to one of their tactics, like the Master of Force one, and perhaps another ability that deals instant damage that they can use in their burst rotation or something along those lines would be enough to push them into a position where they bring enough damage to the table that their extra healing and cleanse will start entering into the equation of whether or not a group should invite a DPS AM into a DPS slot. I can't say for sure about sham, however Hurts Don't It? is an excellent tactic with morale drain and an incredibly powerful toughness debuff, together with their amazing racial tactics. Perhaps a BiS shaman with 3 piece genesis and gunbad acessories + Gettin' Smarter would be able to compensate their lack of strikethrough tactic and carve out a spot in 6man pvp for himself as well. In that regard, sorcerers also struggle until they have amassed enough strikethrough by way of gear.
AM feel pretty right to me compared to similar classes in other mmos. Its just other classes being overbuffed, that didnt need it, make it seem pathetic in comparison. This AM would have been pretty well balanced before the days of real dps and heals from dok/wp. As we now have a class that can do both far far better its still a dead spec.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#32 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 pm

I don't know, honestly. I get what you're saying, but even before the client control and 15 point abilities, its lack of damage in comparison to other classes is really what kept it from being an actual option for 6v6. I don't think that has changed in any way today, although its group healing potential has been improved. Perhaps if you've found a specific sort of playstyle/gear/renown spec that enables it to be worth its dps slot, I'd honestly love to hear about it.

My issue with is not so much that it feels pathetic, but rather that you can increase its healing as much as you want, but it still won't afford them a dps slot in 6man groups and 24 man warbands. It's been made clear that DPS AM shouldn't have a spot in a healer group slot, so the natural conclusion is that its spot would be as a dps. But it won't make that slot unless it can do enough damage to justify it. So while the class would have likely been pretty balanced, it still, even before the DoK changes, wouldn't have had a place in organised pvp because it doesn't heal well enough and it doesn't dps well enough, and it doesn't survive burst well enough either (Unless you go with some wonky gear choices and full defensive renown, but then you tank your damage much much lower and it's only viable for solo). So it would be a balanced class on paper, but that still wouldn't make it playable outside of solo roaming. And I think that AM has real potential to be viable, so it would be a shame if it never saw organised play.

That's my opinion anyhow. I do have some "evidence" behind it, but I'm not claiming that my view on things is definitive.

For the record, I'm not saying that healing, damage and survivability all need to be buffed. I'm just saying that unless DPS AM does equal or very close to pure healer amounts of healing, it won't qualify for a healer slot. Likewise, unless it does damage that is very close to pure dps levels that it does now, it won't qualify for a dps slot either. Some might think that doing more damage would be unbalanced for AM, but it certainly hasn't been for WP and DoK so far. What's more if you look closely, the reason why slayer is taken to warbands is not just because of damage, it's because of Shattered Limbs. Likewise, the reason an Engi might be taken to a WB is because of ranged pull. The reason Mara is in a WB is not because of its damage, its because of morale drain. The reason assault SW is a staple in 6 man groups is not because of its damage, it's because of the double initiative debuff and flexibility to do both ranged and melee damage as required. Damage is by far not the only variable in the equation of whether or not a class is good, but if you don't deal enough of it, that means whatever other utility you bring as a dps class is diminished in value. AM has a bit of utility and recently decent off-healing and fast cleansing was added to the mix, but because the damage isn't good enough, the utility doesn't matter.
Last edited by live4treasure on Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#33 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:48 pm

live4treasure wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 pm I don't know, honestly. I get what you're saying, but even before the client control and 15 point abilities, its lack of damage in comparison to other classes is really what kept it from being an actual option for 6v6. I don't think that has changed in any way today, although its group healing potential has been improved. Perhaps if you've found a specific sort of playstyle/gear/renown spec that enables it to be worth its dps slot, I'd honestly love to hear about it.

My issue with is not so much that it feels pathetic, but rather that you can increase its healing as much as you want, but it still won't afford them a dps slot in 6man groups and 24 man warbands. It's been made clear that DPS AM shouldn't have a spot in a healer group slot, so the natural conclusion is that its spot would be as a dps. But it won't make that slot unless it can do enough damage to justify it. So while the class would have likely been pretty balanced, it still, even before the DoK changes, wouldn't have had a place in organised pvp because it doesn't heal well enough and it doesn't dps well enough, and it doesn't survive burst well enough either (Unless you go with some wonky gear choices and full defensive renown, but then you tank your damage much much lower and it's only viable for solo roaming). So it would be a balanced class on paper, but that still wouldn't make it playable outside of solo roaming. And I think that AM has real potential to be viable, so it would be a shame if it never saw organised play.

That's my opinion anyhow. I do have some "evidence" behind it, but I'm not claiming that my view on things is definitive.
Well, could it be that it won't ever fit into a "meta" dps slot? What if you did the ICONIC special and ran something like 2 tank, 1mdps, 1 hybrid heal/mdps, 1 hybrid heal/rdps, 1 heal? Could it work in that environment?
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#34 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:35 pm

dansari wrote: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:48 pm Well, could it be that it won't ever fit into a "meta" dps slot? What if you did the ICONIC special and ran something like 2 tank, 1mdps, 1 hybrid heal/mdps, 1 hybrid heal/rdps, 1 heal? Could it work in that environment?

I think if it were to work in a specific environment tailored exactly for it, it would have to be something like 1 tank, 2 dps tank, 1 mdps, 1 DPS AM, 1 heal. It would require the triple guard to not fall over when being focused. Deftard kotbs, dps IB with that ability that gives you 10% crit, dps SM, Assault SW, DPS AM, healer WP.

However, even in this environment, I think the optimal choice would be to run 4 pieces of conqueror gear and slot full wound talismans. You'll be acting as a healer that doesn't heal as well, stack up 5 tranquility stacks and then if your team is capable of withstanding enemy pressure, you would use the effect of Divine Fury + Tranquility stack 25% bonus damage in order to apply 3 dots to the target, quick cast a radiant lance and then use an empowered Searing Touch. Would it be good? I don't know, but it doesn't seem like anyone is going out of their way to build the entire team around allowing a DPS AM to function, because every single other class in this composition can be in any kind of team. It should also be noted, that just bringing a white lion or a witch hunter in place of the DPS AM would likely just result in higher kill-potential for the team. So, at least at first glance, there doesn't seem to be any inherent advantage to doing this kind of comp. In fact, I think ICONIC's composition is possible because of the specific classes on destro. DPS shaman has that detaunt ability that will allow it to stay alive on its own and can debuff enemy toughness for 250 which allows the rest of his team to do more damage and makes up for a bit of its own shortcomings, DPS DoK is superior to WP in healing and damage both. So in that sense, I don't think this would work quite as well for Order.

P.S. I edited my last post just after you posted dansari. Sorry, I have a habit of writing as I think, and usually when I finish one post, I reread it and get new thoughts that should've been there from the start. :D
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#35 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:43 pm

No worries :D - I think it's tough to balance around allowing a dps specced player to heal at 70-80% amounts though, you know? DPS DOK, I think, is a little too strong with aoe hd, but counterplay exists and it's mainly a pug killer... not saying that pug killing is beneficial, but that's kind of the niche it has. I don't have a lot of insight into what dps AM/sham need to be successful, but I think that the powers that be are moving in the right direction on it. It'll need tweaking but the balance forums are where we want feedback anyway.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#36 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:55 pm

The problem isn't the mechanic. Its the way the game handled dots in a burst-centric game. Madness sorc in swtor is AM if it had been done correctly, ironically much of which was designed by the same people. Shame that the rvr there was so atrocious as they managed classes design better.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#37 » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:35 pm

I agree, honestly(@dansari). Allowing a dps spec to fill a healer slot is likely going to cause a lot of balance issues and I do regret that little balance proposal I posted recently, because it was too hasty and wasn't thought out within the larger picture. I think if, in simply terms, DPS AM's party healing potential was slightly decreased and instead its damage was buffed, it might be in very good spot and become viable for group play. Currently I can heal someone single target for about 1300 and aoe for 1100 when force stack empowered and I'm pretty sure if I lost 100-200 hp off of both of these, for example, my healing potential would certainly decrease, but still be fairly useful in a tight spot.

But I'm happy it's being looked at. All these changes have gotten me very excited and emotional, honestly. Though I try hard to make my posts objective.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#38 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:53 pm

When I was with TW we used to take a DPS AM quite a lot in our 3/2/1. Alongside a KoTBS/WL/BW it worked really well. This was long before the .ab ex though. But the insta rezz, AoE shatters, puddle, and other utility made it a great 3rd DPS. (Not to mention the “new” WL... Need more COW!)

Now, with lower CD cleansing and empowered HoTs, that DPS AM could be even more helpful. And for the record, if you haven’t used insta rezz with a WW SM during a large battle, you’re missing out....

No offspec will ever replace a “true” DPS class in a 2/2/2. The exception being DoK/WP imo. But they aren’t really supposed to. They bring other things to the table besides raw DPS.

Honestly, I think people put too much effort into BiS classes and specs. This isn’t live with a thriving semi competitive scene. You can build a group to make any class/spec functional and do pretty well with it. The individual players “skill” and knowledge of their class matters far more than which class or spec they’re in.
Last edited by Dabbart on Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#39 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:00 pm

Dabbart wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:53 pm Honestly, I think people put too much effort into BiS classes and specs. This isn’t live with a thriving semi competitive scene. You can build a group to make any class/spec functional and do pretty well with it. The individual players “skill” and knowledge of their class matters far more than which class or spec they’re in.
True, but I don't think anyone's arguing the contrary 8-)
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Re: AM mechanic changes, results and a few thoughts.

Post#40 » Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:06 pm

Spoiler:
dansari wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 6:00 pm
Dabbart wrote: Tue Jul 24, 2018 5:53 pm Honestly, I think people put too much effort into BiS classes and specs. This isn’t live with a thriving semi competitive scene. You can build a group to make any class/spec functional and do pretty well with it. The individual players “skill” and knowledge of their class matters far more than which class or spec they’re in.
True, but I don't think anyone's arguing the contrary 8-)
Oh sorry! I just saw you posting, and I assumed that all player skill and ability was being ignored...

:mrgreen:

W/o sarcasm, I see a bunch of posts on the forums about Meta, and how something is “garbage” or how something “isn’t worth the group slot”. That wasn’t directly pointed towards anyone in this thread.
Azarael wrote: It's only a nerf if you're bad.

(see, I can shitpost too!)
Secrets wrote: Kindly adjust your attitude to actually help the community and do not impose your will on it. You aren't as powerful as you think.

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