White Lion Changes (8/25/2018)

[ashton007]

I'm mostly bummed about the cost of all of those toughness/wounds talis I had, the amount of gold spent on domi pieces etc. /:

[Wdova]

Everything is in testing pre Alpha phase. Once You have .ab ex for dok/wp than You lose it. Once WL get great buff to guardian, than You get completely class rework. I think it need more time for testing and opinion from high ranked WLs. Nothing is final and WL can change back to its original state anyday.

I must somehow agree that rather than completely redesign classes, I like giving useless skills+tactics buffs or changes to make them viable. For example Slayers Retribution:from useless skill to great AOE pressure.

Original White lion had some issues that devs dealt with:

Spamable pounce which on other hand lands far behind target if target was moving fast. It was solved by giving pounce CD(no more spammable gap closer) and giving pounce mini charge(no more landing far behind target and lost "the catch")

Discutable role in a Warband:
Slashing Blade - AOE spamable but in hunter tree dealing Physical dmg
possible solve this moving to guardian and deal Spiritual dmg(WL has no armor bypasing tactic for mutated req. attacks as Marauder and this gonna give Swordmaster AOE spirit debuff synergy with someone else than SM him self)

Echoing Roar - WL and his pet AOE makes AOE interrupt withing 15ft on them and deal AOE spirit dmg(again great if paired with SM AOE spirit debuff)- possible fix is mirror it to Mara like Mouth of Tzeentch which is cone 40ft away and only castable by WL not pet.



Whirling Axe - again hunter abbility with low dmg outpoot and again physical. Move it to guardian, make it spiritual dmg(and again great synergy with SM AOE spirit debuff)

add "skill" or modify Throat Bite to 2s/3s(not sure whats mara duration now) AOE knockdown.
Edit: maybe changing Brutal Pounce from ST knockdown to AOE or adding tactic which make it from ST to like 20-30ft AOE will be better

I would suggest morale drain tactic for guardian skills, but since morale drain was given to SM than its not gonna happen.

As You can see WL performance in warband will be better and without need to whole class redesign for stance dance and it gives also Swordmaster AOE spirit debuff meaning for a DPS class not only for SM himself.

Single target burst from hunter/axeman will berform the same as on live and You can still keep hunter/guardian for soloing(original state, not wounds/toughness contribution).

Edit:
The intension of wounds/toughnes contribution and guardian buff was to "mirror" marauders survivability to WL. It end up that defensive WL had also great burst. Idea of making WL durable as mara is not good, because in general White lion has better burst dmg than marauder, so you cant make them as tanky and keep theyr great dmg outpoot. The direct mirror durability vs durability wont work if 1 class has better dmg outpoot.

[soliticks]

I don't know...I think you just have to look at it logically and ask the right questions.

1. Was Guardian OP in 6v6? No it wasn't even accepted in the group. Pet killed instantly.

2. Was Guardian OP in warbands? No for the same reason as above.

3. Was Guardian OP in maybe 2 warbands? No

4. Was Guardian OP in 1 v 1's? God yes, nearly impossible to win. I think that's your answer.

I'm not one of those people that would fault developers for balancing this game around 1 v 1. I fully understand the sentiment. But if you felt the class was overperforming in duels, all it would have required was a number adjustment. -X% damage across the board would have been received so much better by the White Lion community.

People play the classes they do for a distinct reason. I know of very few White Lions that leveled the class and played it with the hopes that they and their lion could spin in circles with an aoe build in giant warbands (none in fact). They played the lion because it was practically the anticlass to Rdps, and it was notorious for being a great roaming class and small-scale fighter.

In that sense, the same could be said of Witch Elves and Witch Hunters. I doubt anyone went to the character selection screen, saw a naked elf with daggers, and said to themselves..."Now that looks like something I can join a warband and aoe stuff with". They rolled the class to be what it is...an assassin that can dispatch enemies quickly and disappear.

This is why most roamers are White Lions, Witch Elves, and Witch Hunters (with the exception of Toughness Magi, some Blackguards, Monstrosity Marauders, Bouncin Squig Herders, Thargrimm for w/e lonely reason, and of course, Volgograd ^^). Ganking people heading to the keep, killing afkers at BO's, locking people into 1 v x's. This is why a huge portion of these players play these classes. It's their way of having fun in this game. To take away the very reason that people play and enjoy a class in the first place...is fundamentally disheartening. To be told that they weren't nerfed because of their solo capabilities adds insult to injury.

We always had Hunter/Axe to fall back on for competitive 6v6. It was an amazing and potent class that could be respec'd to fulfill whatever role we asked of it. It now lost the whole reason many players enjoyed the class (roaming). It also has gotten weaker in the traditional Hunter/Axeman build. What did we get in return? Spinning in circles in full dps gear against warbands. Knowing that the roaming classes mentioned above retain their playstyles while we lose ours makes it even more depressing.

*edit* I never post on the forums. This class means that much to me.

[facundo7777]

I don't know...I think you just have to look at it logically and ask the right questions.

1. Was Guardian OP in 6v6? No it wasn't even accepted in the group. Pet killed instantly.

2. Was Guardian OP in warbands? No for the same reason as above.

3. Was Guardian OP in maybe 2 warbands? No

4. Was Guardian OP in 1 v 1's? God yes, nearly impossible to win. I think that's your answer.

I'm not one of those people that would fault developers for balancing this game around 1 v 1. I fully understand the sentiment. But if you felt the class was overperforming in duels, all it would have required was a number adjustment. -X% damage across the board would have been received so much better by the White Lion community.

People play the classes they do for a distinct reason. I know of very few White Lions that leveled the class and played it with the hopes that they and their lion could spin in circles with an aoe build in giant warbands (none in fact). They played the lion because it was practically the anticlass to Rdps, and it was notorious for being a great roaming class and small-scale fighter.

In that sense, the same could be said of Witch Elves and Witch Hunters. I doubt anyone went to the character selection screen, saw a naked elf with daggers, and said to themselves..."Now that looks like something I can join a warband and aoe stuff with". They rolled the class to be what it is...an assassin that can dispatch enemies quickly and disappear.

This is why most roamers are White Lions, Witch Elves, and Witch Hunters (with the exception of Toughness Magi, some Blackguards, Monstrosity Marauders, Bouncin Squig Herders, and Thargrimm for w/e lonely reason, and of course, Volgograd ^^). Ganking people heading to the keep, killing afkers at BO's, locking people into 1 v x's. This is why a huge portion of these players play these classes. It's their way of having fun in this game. To take away the very reason that people play and enjoy a class in the first place...is fundamentally disheartening. To be told that they weren't nerfed because of their solo capabilities adds insult to injury.

We always had Hunter/Axe to fall back on for competitive 6v6. It was an amazing and potent class that could be respec'd to fulfill whatever role we asked of it. It now lost the whole reason many players enjoyed the class (roaming). It also has gotten weaker in the traditional Hunter/Axeman build. What did we get in return? Spinning in circles in full dps gear against warbands. Knowing that the roaming classes mentioned above retain their playstyles while we lose ours makes it even more depressing.

100% true. I hope Devs take opinions like that and do sth with our class.
Destro will rage bottom this post that we would like to be OP. Wo won't!!! We would like to have our class and playstyle back

[chakzo]

My fifty cents:

One of the cooler aspects of the game is that the classes are unique. So i would never like to see mirroring. Players tend to whine about missing some options other classes have but whatever.

To the WL topic. I used to love the class at its origin. Hunt/Axe for group play. Hunt/Guardian for solo/small scale. And i mean the original guardian so no tougness/wounds. Remember using the original aka. half healing furious mending time to time.

I respect the will to complete rework of some classes, but most of a time it is just not there and have to say it is causing more problems. I can imagine all the work behind this and it is making me sad even more.

I think all thats neccessary is just fine tunnig. Like brutal pounce duration (from 3s to 2s), Pounce cooldown etc. changes that went out really great.

Btw there is supereasy workaround for 6v6 WL in Revange tactic. Can be fine tunned from 50% dmg bonus to lets say 60% and tested and I guarantee that you will find a spot that the oposing team won´t be goin after the pet anymore.

Was using revange/loner for 75% dmg bonus back in the days. Two tactic but the pet kill was usually quite deadly for the oposition.

[Wdova]

Spoiler:

My fifty cents:

One of the cooler aspects of the game is that the classes are unique. So i would never like to see mirroring. Players tend to whine about missing some options other classes have but whatever.

To the WL topic. I used to love the class at its origin. Hunt/Axe for group play. Hunt/Guardian for solo/small scale. And i mean the original guardian so no tougness/wounds. Remember using the original aka. half healing furious mending time to time.

I respect the will to complete rework of some classes, but most of a time it is just not there and have to say it is causing more problems. I can imagine all the work behind this and it is making me sad even more.

I think all thats neccessary is just fine tunnig. Like brutal pounce duration (from 3s to 2s), Pounce cooldown etc. changes that went out really great.

Btw there is supereasy workaround for 6v6 WL in Revange tactic. Can be fine tunned from 50% dmg bonus to lets say 60% and tested and I guarantee that you will find a spot that the oposing team won´t be goin after the pet anymore.

Was using revange/loner for 75% dmg bonus back in the days. Two tactic but the pet kill was usually quite deadly for the oposition.

Wl already have Primal Fury skill +25% all dmg for 10s with CD 60s. Probably lowering CD to 25-30s to make it usefull more often?
Wasnt be a bit OP to combine revenge/loner and Primal Fury for 100% dmg for 10s?

[M0rw47h]

I really don't understand how people can complain when dev team try to make their class warband revelant reworking it from smallscale bully.

So many pussies on Destro....keep giving in to their whiny demands, ror team.

Spoiler:

[chakzo]

Just stating how it was and that there always are options to counterplay if you put things together. Pet dead means no crit tactic and coordinated strike. So you had to compensate a lot. It´s all gone anyway. Btw this aproach was usable in warband environment too. Guess i am just to conservative.

[FinduilAsuryan]

I completely agree with guys sayin that you play classes for a reason. Wl for me is no more atm

[Mykomark]

R.I.P WL "goodbye my sweet elven prince". But if serious I considering myself as a loner type and WL guardian was the way to go (I have only WL, played him about 1yr) guess time to reroll for solo Magus.