White Lion Changes (8/25/2018)

[Foomy44]

Spoiler:

Why not mirror the Guardian tree to SH pouncetank tree. At the moment Order lacks this new archetype, a class with wl mobility and tank levels of survivability and cc.

Just like Destro has lacked a mirror of the old guardian WL for about a decade? Don't recall many order complaining that destro needed a Guardian mirror back then to make things fair.

You guys are aware SH has to give up his entire ranged kit to use melee stuff right? WL getting SH tree while still retaining all their other stuff (charge, aoe detaunt, bypass defenses, pet heal, 50% crit damage tactic lol, brute force, every core melee attack, being able to actually use abilities from other trees while in "guardian form", etc.) doesn't really seem balanced to me, not to mention your stance mechanic is on half the CD SH is on which makes a HUGE difference in what abilities you can use mid fight and makes the concept of trying to balance a guardian bouncin tree against SH bouncin tree by "tying stuff to a stance" a lot less applicable. Are all you people claiming a SH tree mirror would be fair just conveniently choosing to ignore all this stuff?

1. I don't recall anybody asking to be a SH + everything in our toolkit. What I personally wanted was a spec with a similar rotation and similar output to the current Bouncin' Squig Herder.

2. Btw, you don't have an amazing charge? We do not have a pet heal. We do not have a "guardian form" unless you mean +80 toughness without being able to use any of our abilities.

3. Here's why many White Lions wanted to be more like the melee SH after the Guardian butchering: At least triple our survivability, very fun rotation, aoe capabilities, great group utility, and respectable damage.

1. First guy I replied to literally just asked to get bouncin tree. "Why not mirror the Guardian tree to SH pouncetank tree." If you have some proposal that significantly changes things around to make it balanced than great, I didn't reply to that proposal.

2. You mean the 15 pt ability? The one that if you mirrored trees than WL would also have access to ontop of it's core charge which is the exact problem I am discussing? Or did you mean the 5 pt one in a different tree that costs mastery points, doesn't work in squig armor, and requires your pet to be alive? Cuz if you meant that one than I would disagree that it's amazing.

WL's don't have a pet heal? Please explain what Nature's Bond is then. Then read the tooltip for Spirit of the Forest and explain again how WL have no pet heal. Then think about how getting a tactic that turns your pet into a personal guard might not have been balanced around a class with multiple ways to heal that pet. (not saying it would be OP but just another obvious example in a long list of reasons why bouncin tree on WL would be a lot different than on SH )

What I meant by "Guardian Form" (forgot the tree name was switched to woodsman my bad) was that you would be able to use all your melee abilities at all times outside the 5 second stance CD since you aren't a ranged class, unlike SH who can never use any of their ranged abilities while in melee form and can't "switch stances" without locking them out of the majority of the kit they spec'd for for 10 seconds. 10 seconds is a lot longer than 5 in the middle of a fight, and having to turn into a squishy ranged guy for those 10 seconds is a lot different than just losing a few of your attacks but still being a MDPS 24/7 with all the core benefits that brings with it.

[sogeou]

1. I don't recall anybody asking to be a SH + everything in our toolkit. What I personally wanted was a spec with a similar rotation and similar output to the current Bouncin' Squig Herder.

2. Btw, you don't have an amazing charge? We do not have a pet heal. We do not have a "guardian form" unless you mean +80 toughness without being able to use any of our abilities.

3. Here's why many White Lions wanted to be more like the melee SH after the Guardian butchering: At least triple our survivability, very fun rotation, aoe capabilities, great group utility, and respectable damage.

You played a broken class which you knew was 100% OP all the way to RR 80. I do not feel sorry for you. All of those hundreds of 1 second kills never stopped you from playing it. Now we are seeing WL's calling SH OP. lol I have seen it all. The class is at a good spot, it has good things and it has bad. It brings a lot to the group and warband, but does not have the burst of a melee SW. But, a melee SW does not have as good mobility or selfheal.

[Mausini]

1. I don't recall anybody asking to be a SH + everything in our toolkit. What I personally wanted was a spec with a similar rotation and similar output to the current Bouncin' Squig Herder.

2. Btw, you don't have an amazing charge? We do not have a pet heal. We do not have a "guardian form" unless you mean +80 toughness without being able to use any of our abilities.

3. Here's why many White Lions wanted to be more like the melee SH after the Guardian butchering: At least triple our survivability, very fun rotation, aoe capabilities, great group utility, and respectable damage.

You played a broken class which you knew was 100% OP all the way to RR 80. I do not feel sorry for you. All of those hundreds of 1 second kills never stopped you from playing it. Now we are seeing WL's calling SH OP. lol I have seen it all. The class is at a good spot, it has good things and it has bad. It brings a lot to the group and warband, but does not have the burst of a melee SW. But, a melee SW does not have as good mobility or selfheal.

Instead of complaining about how OP WL was, the right thing to do right now would be to look for solutions in how to make this class a balanced, fair and fun to play class that contributes in a healthy manner to ROR.

No one "deserved" anything just because they played a class that was overbuffed by the RoR team, that's plain false and a really really bad attitude. Please stop that.

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

[sogeou]

Instead of complaining about how OP WL was, the right thing to do right now would be to look for solutions in how to make this class a balanced, fair and fun to play class that contributes in a healthy manner to ROR.

No one "deserved" anything just because they played a class that was overbuffed by the RoR team, that's plain false and a really really bad attitude. Please stop that.

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

No it is needed. People spread too much false information. WL were on top of the charts and feared no class. They are trying to make things seem as they class is terrible. I have one and the DPS on my RR65 WL is perfectly fine for what it should be 1.5k to 2k DPS. The problem is people were use to doing 6k dps kill people in 1-3 seconds. Destro said for months the class was too strong. All of that is in the past and we are here now.

What I am saying is the class is fine with the new updates today.

[Foomy44]

1. I don't recall anybody asking to be a SH + everything in our toolkit. What I personally wanted was a spec with a similar rotation and similar output to the current Bouncin' Squig Herder.

2. Btw, you don't have an amazing charge? We do not have a pet heal. We do not have a "guardian form" unless you mean +80 toughness without being able to use any of our abilities.

3. Here's why many White Lions wanted to be more like the melee SH after the Guardian butchering: At least triple our survivability, very fun rotation, aoe capabilities, great group utility, and respectable damage.

You played a broken class which you knew was 100% OP all the way to RR 80. I do not feel sorry for you. All of those hundreds of 1 second kills never stopped you from playing it. Now we are seeing WL's calling SH OP. lol I have seen it all. The class is at a good spot, it has good things and it has bad. It brings a lot to the group and warband, but does not have the burst of a melee SW. But, a melee SW does not have as good mobility or selfheal.

Instead of complaining about how OP WL was, the right thing to do right now would be to look for solutions in how to make this class a balanced, fair and fun to play class that contributes in a healthy manner to ROR.

No one "deserved" anything just because they played a class that was overbuffed by the RoR team, that's plain false and a really really bad attitude. Please stop that.

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

He wasn't complaining about WL's being OP, seemed to me he was complaining about delusional order players misrepresenting the state of the game. Pretty sure "look for solutions in how to make this class a balanced, fair and fun to play class that contributes in a healthy manner to ROR" is exactly what this rework is trying to accomplish and also what the people in here discussing things are trying to help out with. Part of looking for solutions to making it a balanced class means pointing out what made it's previous iteration unbalanced so that we don't repeat those mistakes.

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

So, when WL players complain about SH it's all for the good of the server and in the pursuit of fariness and balance, but when SH players point out they aren't as OP as you guys love to claim suddenly "this attitude is not helping the community at all". Cute.

[Mausini]

Instead of complaining about how OP WL was, the right thing to do right now would be to look for solutions in how to make this class a balanced, fair and fun to play class that contributes in a healthy manner to ROR.

No one "deserved" anything just because they played a class that was overbuffed by the RoR team, that's plain false and a really really bad attitude. Please stop that.

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

No it is needed. People spread too much false information. WL were on top of the charts and feared no class. They are trying to make things seem as they class is terrible. I have one and the DPS on my RR65 WL is perfectly fine for what it should be 1.5k to 2k DPS. The problem is people were use to doing 6k dps kill people in 1-3 seconds. Destro said for months the class was too strong. All of that is in the past and we are here now.

What I am saying is the class is fine with the new updates today.

We are not talking about the damage, at least that is not what my problems are. My problems are, that the dot heal WL has now is, in any case (smallscale and especially WB play), inferior to what Marauder can do. That health ticks wont keep you alive when 1 or 2 warbands crush into each other. No armor penetration on the other side is a big thing. In high aoe damage situations tankiness is always much better that a selfheal.
Selfheals are cool for roaming but the selfheal now is scaling with more enemy's. That's contra intuitive.

The mix of armor debuff and spirit damage is far away from the optimum too. You cant use it in combination with Woodman because a lot of the skills do spirit damage and its single target. In warband play resists are skyhigh because of all the buffs and the Marauder has much better tools do deal with that situation -->The armor ignore of Marauder has much more potential in AOE situations. The armor ignore is much more consistent and gives more ways of minmaxing your stats.

The implementation of the pet and the need for an tactic to make the class work is worth a second look to. And no, the pet cc is really really had to apply too because the pet is so dam slow again. That has always been a big issue until Stalker Pet speed buff was introduced. Its not consistent in any way right now.

And to clear it out again:
The reason why WL is changed is not because of the Guardian opness alone. Its because WL was in a unhealthy niche and wasn't able to contribute in large scale battles. That is at least what I understood from what Aza wrote.
And that's exactly why I don't thing WL is in a round spot now.

And now it's your turn to complain about how op WL was and then I will answer you that this is not the issue here at all.

[Mausini]

Ignore that post please, editing went wrong...

[Mausini]

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

So, when WL players complain about SH it's all for the good of the server and in the pursuit of fariness and balance, but when SH players point out they aren't as OP as you guys love to claim suddenly "this attitude is not helping the community at all". Cute.

As far as I understand my post I ask for stopping the OP'ness **** comparisons. I am not sure why you thing that swapping the argument to a "WL do complain" sight makes my request less valid.

[Foomy44]

With this attitue are not helping RoR or the community at all.

So, when WL players complain about SH it's all for the good of the server and in the pursuit of fariness and balance, but when SH players point out they aren't as OP as you guys love to claim suddenly "this attitude is not helping the community at all". Cute.

As far as I understand my post I ask for stopping the OP'ness **** comparisons. I am not sure why you thing that swapping the argument to a "WL do complain" sight makes my request less valid.

And as far as I understand you asked people to stop complaining about WL being/having been OP, not about OP comparison in general. I haven't seen a single instance of you trying to get a WL to stop complaining about SHs or Maras. I see a lot of you complaining about how certain WL abilities are weaker than Mara abilities which seems like a comparison to me.

[Telen]

Everything Destro says about the old Guardian. Order says about tank SH. Too mobile for its survivability. Pounce charge used as an escape tool too easily. It may not have the damage but it has a utility kit that would make a tank blush. Aoe snare on a pouncing class. Aoe kb that makes sm aoe kb seem tame. CD increaser that order has on it most immobile class on destros most mobile. Its pretty much a totally new archetype. One order should have access to.