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[SW] Scout Stance thoughts

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anarchypark
Posts: 1395

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#11 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:42 am

so many errors.
try this
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3970,3959
inside keep : discerning offense -> smoldering arrow, pve -> expert skirmisher or leading shot, ambush->focused mind

rotation:
glass arrow jab at max range.
when u see 10s opportunity, start with festering.
FA - VoN(flight time make FA hit with this) - AA - EE - FA( end of VoN ) - SA - FtW - FA - AA - EE ... repeat
or
FA - VoN - EE - EE - FA - GA - SA - FtW - FA - repeat
instant arrows on moving, though GA max range are safer.
WW + FM = spam FA

if you still think scout is bad after this rotation ( or can't even finish rotation )
it's not for you, find other class.
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL4
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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Flavorburst
Posts: 341

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#12 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:35 am

H0tYand3r3 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:06 am
Please don't post a thread about a class you've barely played. You are renown rank 22 and don't have any set bonuses. Have you really played the class yet?
While I agree with you that OP is speaking outside of his depth, OP isn't particularly wrong that scout is garbage.

Scout is probably the worst class/spec on order. I can't think of anything as shitty on order outside of maybe giantslayer slayer.

sidhevicious
Posts: 8

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#13 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:24 am

Manatikik wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 6:15 pm
Also the notion that VoN is anything less than fantastic is laughable at best. It’s arguably the strongest single DPS skill in the game (the other being Rampage on Slayer).
I said VoN was a decent ability, but it scales off mediocre abilities, and ideally VoN+SA is what you want to do, but SA is laughable. FM+VoN makes you decently viable for a few seconds, but thats about it. Otherwise youre free roaming renown points.

---
H0tYand3r3 wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:06 am
Please don't post a thread about a class you've barely played. You are renown rank 22 and don't have any set bonuses. Have you really played the class yet?
And better gear is going to make the Scout spec better? You think the tree is just fine as is?

---
wpc56 wrote:
Fri Dec 13, 2019 8:44 pm
People bring SW for spamming healing debuff, not for dmg... they are assist and not primary dmg. Scout hardly ever work as a spec as it doesn't add anything to the table with severe limitations.
I understand what you are saying, but is that what the class was MEANT to do? Or what it has fallen back on?

---

In any case, I have rolled a slayer, and I am much happier. At level 8, I am already way more effective than my SW ever was. I have decent DPS, spammable AoE, escapes and some survivability. I dont mind dying a million times, lord knows thats all I did as a SW, and I am sure slayer has some survivability problems, and there is no doubt a gear grind too, but the class is PLAYABLE, and actually FEELS constructive and threatening. Cant say the same for SW.
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sidhevicious
Posts: 8

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#14 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:46 am

anarchypark wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 5:42 am
so many errors.
try this
https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... ,3970,3959
inside keep : discerning offense -> smoldering arrow, pve -> expert skirmisher or leading shot, ambush->focused mind

rotation:
glass arrow jab at max range.
when u see 10s opportunity, start with festering.
FA - VoN(flight time make FA hit with this) - AA - EE - FA( end of VoN ) - SA - FtW - FA - AA - EE ... repeat
or
FA - VoN - EE - EE - FA - GA - SA - FtW - FA - repeat
instant arrows on moving, though GA max range are safer.
WW + FM = spam FA

if you still think scout is bad after this rotation ( or can't even finish rotation )
it's not for you, find other class.
However, the very spec you posted you did not go for Rain of Steel or Guerilla Training. All you're saying is that you agree with my post on which abilities to use and which to avoid.

You missed the positives of what I posted I guess. I love FA+VoN. I use GA at max on casters. I spam GA, FlArr and BHA all the time while running. I do find AA+EE+EE+FtW to be a great combo. I use No quarter specifically for this. And the spec you posted is pretty much exactly what I am working towards, and the playstyle you posted is exactly what I do when opportunity allows. And it does work great when you have a good group, or the situation is right.

I love using FtW to drop ailing players, or even switching to skirmish and flank shot the ones running away.
I also love finishing people off with a FA+VoN (and pray for crit).

The unfortunate part is that it is relatively rare. SW is near useless when you're on the back foot. The best I can do for my team is to suicide run in and WP or Ambush to slow the enemy advance. SW is also very weak at long range AoE or any ranged AoE. I am sure you're not disputing the spec can do with a decent ranged AoE ability, and a decent escape/survival option. If the top of Scout was a 80-100 ft grenade, for 1k+ damage, it would make speccing deeper into scout more atractive. Also, If flaming arrow was an explosive arrow for limited AoE (it does have a 10sec cooldown), it would also be more viable.

So ultimately, given what you posted is exactly what I said ... I am not sure where the 'so many errors' are.

EDIT: I do have one variation from what you posted, though its minor. I use 'Pierce Defenses' rather than 'Discerning Offence'. This way the whole team benefits. (I also prioritise Leading shots when in a group).
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anarchypark
Posts: 1395

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#15 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:13 pm

sidhevicious wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:46 am
Spoiler:
However, the very spec you posted you did not go for Rain of Steel or Guerilla Training. All you're saying is that you agree with my post on which abilities to use and which to avoid.

You missed the positives of what I posted I guess. I love FA+VoN. I use GA at max on casters. I spam GA, FlArr and BHA all the time while running. I do find AA+EE+EE+FtW to be a great combo. I use No quarter specifically for this. And the spec you posted is pretty much exactly what I am working towards, and the playstyle you posted is exactly what I do when opportunity allows. And it does work great when you have a good group, or the situation is right.

I love using FtW to drop ailing players, or even switching to skirmish and flank shot the ones running away.
I also love finishing people off with a FA+VoN (and pray for crit).

The unfortunate part is that it is relatively rare. SW is near useless when you're on the back foot. The best I can do for my team is to suicide run in and WP or Ambush to slow the enemy advance. SW is also very weak at long range AoE or any ranged AoE. I am sure you're not disputing the spec can do with a decent ranged AoE ability, and a decent escape/survival option. If the top of Scout was a 80-100 ft grenade, for 1k+ damage, it would make speccing deeper into scout more atractive. Also, If flaming arrow was an explosive arrow for limited AoE (it does have a 10sec cooldown), it would also be more viable.

So ultimately, given what you posted is exactly what I said ... I am not sure where the 'so many errors' are.

EDIT: I do have one variation from what you posted, though its minor. I use 'Pierce Defenses' rather than 'Discerning Offence'. This way the whole team benefits. (I also prioritise Leading shots when in a group).

do you want AoE?
it's obvious scout is not for AoE. they do ST dmg. it's not bursty as BW/sorc but still, kinda bursty against unawared target.
it is not rare. it's only one thing scouts do, and good at it.
maybe look for right place and prey?

it's not all about killing. offense is best defense sometimes.
you can make rdps run away. GA + fester and they're awared of you.
distract their focus. if they ignore you, i'm sure u can finish them.
if not, back and forth range battle. that way you negate 1 enemy rdps dmg. that's defense.

error was bad wording.
SA have it's use. instant leeching, making 30% for FtW if enemy was 31~32% etc.
4pt tactics are mostly in that lvl. not that good.
you shouldn't miss much as scout, missing FA is critical. reduced chance to be dodged is valued stat for scout.
no chance for PD to trigger.
let skirmishers run PD at funnel, i rather shot backlines down from wall.
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL4
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

User avatar
Gracely
Posts: 106

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#16 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:56 pm

sidhevicious wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:24 am
[n any case, I have rolled a slayer, and I am much happier. At level 8, I am already way more effective than my SW ever was. I have decent DPS, spammable AoE, escapes and some survivability. I dont mind dying a million times, lord knows thats all I did as a SW, and I am sure slayer has some survivability problems, and there is no doubt a gear grind too, but the class is PLAYABLE, and actually FEELS constructive and threatening. Cant say the same for SW.
I was going to suggest reroll a Slayer or BW but you beat me to it! Good luck :)

sidhevicious
Posts: 8

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#17 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:05 pm

anarchypark wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:13 pm
do you want AoE?
it's obvious scout is not for AoE. they do ST dmg. it's not bursty as BW/sorc but still, kinda bursty against unawared target.
it is not rare. it's only one thing scouts do, and good at it.
maybe look for right place and prey?

it's not all about killing. offense is best defense sometimes.
you can make rdps run away. GA + fester and they're awared of you.
distract their focus. if they ignore you, i'm sure u can finish them.
if not, back and forth range battle. that way you negate 1 enemy rdps dmg. that's defense.

error was bad wording.
SA have it's use. instant leeching, making 30% for FtW if enemy was 31~32% etc.
4pt tactics are mostly in that lvl. not that good.
you shouldn't miss much as scout, missing FA is critical. reduced chance to be dodged is valued stat for scout.
no chance for PD to trigger.
let skirmishers run PD at funnel, i rather shot backlines down from wall.
Thanks for the response @Anarchypark.

My main point is that two of the Scout Tree abilities are duplicated/surpassed by core abilities anyway, and there is zero temptation to max out scout tree for that extra bit of damage. Having a top tier ability that was any of (a long range grenade, a long range snipe) would have sealed the deal. The other scout ability I use is ofc Throat shot.

To be honest/fair .... I use SA on the rare occassion to try and ensure a FtW crit, but it affords little more than one shot, rather than a high-dps window.

As it is, to make up for the poor Scout Tree utility, you are almost forced to sacrifice some Scout utility to try and get Shadow Sting or Eye Shot. This means sacrificing one or more of (No Quarter, Enchanted Arrows, Glass Arrow, Fell the Weak) to get further up the Skirmish tree, which means you have more utility, but mediocre damage in both trees.

To other posters, I don't see how my 'lack of experience' changes the fact that (Steady Aim, Rain of Steel, Guerilla Training) are pretty weak, or that a tweak to Flame Arrow (roll smoldering arrow into the base ability, or into enchanted arrows, and devise a new tactic to replace it) might somewhat improve the current state of things for Scouts, and make all three trees slightly more viable.
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Aethilmar
Posts: 175

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#18 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:54 pm

sidhevicious wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:05 pm
To other posters, I don't see how my 'lack of experience' changes the fact that (Steady Aim, Rain of Steel, Guerilla Training) are pretty weak, or that a tweak to Flame Arrow (roll smoldering arrow into the base ability, or into enchanted arrows, and devise a new tactic to replace it) might somewhat improve the current state of things for Scouts, and make all three trees slightly more viable.
Don't worry about them. There a a lot of folks in this game who think if you haven't played a class for 1000 hours with BiS gear you can't perform a reasonable analysis of its strengths and weaknesses. I would counter that the fact they have played it to the point they have optimized gear makes them forget all the weaknesses that said gear has covered up.

Bottom line is your analysis is pretty much spot on. The SW is now and always has been a "tweener" in that it does a lot of things okay but nothing well. There is no role of the SW where you cannot find a specialist class that does those things better and with more impact. I like to look at the SW as a training class in that if you learn to play it well (for instance in Scout) then you can take those skills and translate them to a real RDPS class such as a BW and really kick butt.

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Manatikik
Posts: 905

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#19 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:58 pm

sidhevicious wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:05 pm
anarchypark wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:13 pm
do you want AoE?
it's obvious scout is not for AoE. they do ST dmg. it's not bursty as BW/sorc but still, kinda bursty against unawared target.
it is not rare. it's only one thing scouts do, and good at it.
maybe look for right place and prey?

it's not all about killing. offense is best defense sometimes.
you can make rdps run away. GA + fester and they're awared of you.
distract their focus. if they ignore you, i'm sure u can finish them.
if not, back and forth range battle. that way you negate 1 enemy rdps dmg. that's defense.

error was bad wording.
SA have it's use. instant leeching, making 30% for FtW if enemy was 31~32% etc.
4pt tactics are mostly in that lvl. not that good.
you shouldn't miss much as scout, missing FA is critical. reduced chance to be dodged is valued stat for scout.
no chance for PD to trigger.
let skirmishers run PD at funnel, i rather shot backlines down from wall.
Thanks for the response @Anarchypark.

My main point is that two of the Scout Tree abilities are duplicated/surpassed by core abilities anyway, and there is zero temptation to max out scout tree for that extra bit of damage. Having a top tier ability that was any of (a long range grenade, a long range snipe) would have sealed the deal. The other scout ability I use is ofc Throat shot.

To be honest/fair .... I use SA on the rare occassion to try and ensure a FtW crit, but it affords little more than one shot, rather than a high-dps window.

As it is, to make up for the poor Scout Tree utility, you are almost forced to sacrifice some Scout utility to try and get Shadow Sting or Eye Shot. This means sacrificing one or more of (No Quarter, Enchanted Arrows, Glass Arrow, Fell the Weak) to get further up the Skirmish tree, which means you have more utility, but mediocre damage in both trees.

To other posters, I don't see how my 'lack of experience' changes the fact that (Steady Aim, Rain of Steel, Guerilla Training) are pretty weak, or that a tweak to Flame Arrow (roll smoldering arrow into the base ability, or into enchanted arrows, and devise a new tactic to replace it) might somewhat improve the current state of things for Scouts, and make all three trees slightly more viable.

The main point of it is that you really don’t have any experience to back up any of your claims and you obviously haven’t looked through the Balance Forums Proposals to see any of the real changes/discussions that have been had over these skills. Yes Steady Aim is garbage, but that’s Core not Scout so it’s moot to your complaints about scout. Guerilla is a hold over from live/previous iterations where No Quarter also increased the AP cost of EE by 20 - so it had its place (also on live you had a lot more stats so MA/IA were less necessary). Rain of Steel is bad but so are most M4’s in the game - you also have Instill Fear for morale drops, FM for FA + WW spam to get you insane burst, and Whirling Rage is now base which if you’re in ORvR you might as well dump your excess points in Assault to up its damage instead of trying to get SS for a variety of reasons.

The changes Scout need to get a little boost (though it’s not terrible in the right playstyle - aka casual SC’s) have nothing to do with any of the points or skills you have brought up. BHA and SS being increased to 100ft base, reversal of the Eye Shot changes so you have access to your RKD again, and enabling AA while on the move in Scout (would need to be added to Gas Squig as well). You could also increase FA to 100ft base to match Explodin Errer but that just may be me.

In the grand scheme of things Scout will always be inferior to BW and Engi because it lacks a damage modifier component like they both have. Your rotations won’t do as much damage but there are compensations and trade offs that you get by playing a SW over those classes.
<Montague><Capulet>

sidhevicious
Posts: 8

Re: [SW] Scout Stance thoughts

Post#20 » Sat Dec 14, 2019 10:48 pm

Manatikik wrote:
Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:58 pm
The main point of it is that you really don’t have any experience to back up any of your claims and you obviously haven’t looked through the Balance Forums Proposals to see any of the real changes/discussions that have been had over these skills. Yes Steady Aim is garbage, but that’s Core not Scout so it’s moot to your complaints about scout. Guerilla is a hold over from live/previous iterations where No Quarter also increased the AP cost of EE by 20 - so it had its place (also on live you had a lot more stats so MA/IA were less necessary). Rain of Steel is bad but so are most M4’s in the game - you also have Instill Fear for morale drops, FM for FA + WW spam to get you insane burst, and Whirling Rage is now base which if you’re in ORvR you might as well dump your excess points in Assault to up its damage instead of trying to get SS for a variety of reasons.

The changes Scout need to get a little boost (though it’s not terrible in the right playstyle - aka casual SC’s) have nothing to do with any of the points or skills you have brought up. BHA and SS being increased to 100ft base, reversal of the Eye Shot changes so you have access to your RKD again, and enabling AA while on the move in Scout (would need to be added to Gas Squig as well). You could also increase FA to 100ft base to match Explodin Errer but that just may be me.

In the grand scheme of things Scout will always be inferior to BW and Engi because it lacks a damage modifier component like they both have. Your rotations won’t do as much damage but there are compensations and trade offs that you get by playing a SW over those classes.
Thank you Manitikik.

I well accept that I may not have the experience or insight to suggest sweeping changes, as I have barely been playing for two weeks.

However I guess I am not wrong in my perception that the SW in general and Scout spec specifically feels somewhat lacking, and probably unfinished. I dont want to make sweeping changes changes to the class and neither do I want it to be perceived as OP as some classes appear. I do rather like playing mobile ranged classes, just disappointed at how ineffectual it feels much of the time.

I chose the class because of the ranged attraction.

-‐----------

On another note .... I compared in game the two abilities Hail of Doom (core M4) and Rain of Steel (Scout top tier M4). Hail of Doom does 3k damage over 5secs, and Rain of Steel 2k damage over 10secs according to the tooltip. How in heavens name would anyone consider it a worthwhile spend of mastery points? And I dont see how better RR or gear will change that equation.

I suppose I would have hoped for some acknowledgement that the class and spec is being looked at, but mostly what I've heard is 'it's fine, l2play!' That's cool, I freely admit I'm new at this, and making an effort to learn.
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