[AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

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chimiko
Posts: 2

[AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#1 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 am

Hi!

I've been playing Archmage for a couple of weeks now and i'm fairly new to the game.
I mostly play dps so what i'm talking about is from a DPS AM perspective not a healer one.

High Magic allows us to go between dpsing and healing. Speeding up or doing slightly more powerful dots/hots or faster cast speed on a couple of abilitys.
While this looks great on paper it dosent really feel good to play with when you're actually playing the game.
Sure AM's can do some cool healing and have some utility, its fairly overshadowed by both RP and WP on the order side. (I'm sure Shamans have the same issue on the Destruction side)
I'm not sure if this is because of community perspective of the class or if its actually just worse than RP/WP.

My suggestion is to rework High Magic completely. I'm not sure how much power the devs have or have time to do.

Here is what i think should be done:

To keep the whole Healing and DPSing separate i believe it should be remade into a power up system such as,
If you constantly casting damage spells a bar will start filling up increasing the damage you do but it's also reducing the healing you're doing. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage) while reducing the healing with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing)
Same goes for healing, the more healing spells you cast, the more powerful they become but your damage spells will have reduced damage. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing) while reducing the damage with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage)

Or you could try to stay inbetween the the dmg increase and the healing increase to ping pong intbetween and get none of the benefits but none of the drawbacks.

This will allow dps AM's to do more damage efficiently and healing AM's to focus more on healing. It will also create a more specialized way of playing Archmage(and shamans). Obviously the numbers can be tweaked a lot easier than changing the class mechanics. Personally think its a step in the right direction at least.


Or if you REALLY want to go hard on being this hybrid healer/dps:er you could remove the penalty completely. I mean if you gear towards damage you wont have any willpower to make your heals super good.
So having all that healing reduction dosent really make that much sense if you tweak the numbers a bit. You can reduce the base healing of AM's heals but make it scale way better with willpower so AM's dosent become a dmg/healing machine that noone can kill and hes just laughing at everyone while dotting and healing himself. Obviously do the same with the damage spells.

Taking advantage of the current High Magic system feels pointless and honestly its a terrible design. Blipping in between dmg and healing looks cool but honestly it's not really that great. Warhammer dosent really allow for hybrid specs. The game isent built for having that kind of hybrid mechanics. Not in term of dps and healing atleast. Swapping between melee and ranged seams to work for shadow warrior (somewhat atleast), i don't feel like it works for AM's.

I would like to add one more thing as a DPS AM i feel like we should have some help from cleanse spamming. Maybe a dot that explodes (similar to seed of corruption in wow) when clenased. That would atleast make sure that people arent just spam cleansing anything i put my dots on then dance on my corpse taunting.
Also Khaine's Touch should be made baseline and maybe even remove the healing reduction it has on it. Divine fury already has -20% adding another 20% is just meh. Just make divine fury -25% or -30% healing reduction if you really wanna keep it that way.

I'm sure i'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my personal opinion good or bad i thought i'd share it with you guys.

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Aerogath
Suspended
Posts: 236

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#2 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 am

How would it be with... DPS AM is already to strong as he is, has to much range and only needs a nerf to his healing, because a good played DPS AM is nearly unkillable and have a seriously broken ap drain ? :D

Aerogath
Suspended
Posts: 236

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#3 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:45 am

Aerogath wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 am
How would it be with... DPS AM is already to strong as he is, has to much range and only needs a nerf to his healing, because a good played DPS AM is nearly unkillable and has a seriously broken ap drain ? :D

chimiko
Posts: 2

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#4 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:52 am

Aerogath wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:42 am
How would it be with... DPS AM is already to strong as he is, has to much range and only needs a nerf to his healing, because a good played DPS AM is nearly unkillable and have a seriously broken ap drain ? :D
I'm not asking for tons of damage or nerfs or buffs.
I'm asking for a remake of how high magic works. Make it so when you play dps you do more dps, when you're healing you're doing more healing.
This wont even fix all the other problems AM's have.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that AM's are crazy strong and unkillable when most WB's would rather take any other dps or any other healer over an Archmage. :)
Don't get me wrong, i think AM's is a great solo roamer/pve farmer. Outside of those two I don't really think they are that great.

User avatar
Arbich
Posts: 628

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#5 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:34 am

chimiko wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 am
I'm sure i'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my personal opinion good or bad i thought i'd share it with you guys.
When you are sure that you willbget a lot of hate, you should also think about why. Maybe your proposal isn't that good? A 25% dmg increase on dps AM is overkill.
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

Sulorie
Posts: 4783

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#6 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 9:43 am

Better not touch the almost useless class mechanic, before you mess it up even more.
Dying is no option.

emiliorv
Posts: 416

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#7 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:23 am

chimiko wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 am
Hi!

I've been playing Archmage for a couple of weeks now and i'm fairly new to the game.
I mostly play dps so what i'm talking about is from a DPS AM perspective not a healer one.

High Magic allows us to go between dpsing and healing. Speeding up or doing slightly more powerful dots/hots or faster cast speed on a couple of abilitys.
While this looks great on paper it dosent really feel good to play with when you're actually playing the game.
Sure AM's can do some cool healing and have some utility, its fairly overshadowed by both RP and WP on the order side. (I'm sure Shamans have the same issue on the Destruction side)
I'm not sure if this is because of community perspective of the class or if its actually just worse than RP/WP.

My suggestion is to rework High Magic completely. I'm not sure how much power the devs have or have time to do.

Here is what i think should be done:

To keep the whole Healing and DPSing separate i believe it should be remade into a power up system such as,
If you constantly casting damage spells a bar will start filling up increasing the damage you do but it's also reducing the healing you're doing. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage) while reducing the healing with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing)
Same goes for healing, the more healing spells you cast, the more powerful they become but your damage spells will have reduced damage. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing) while reducing the damage with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage)

Or you could try to stay inbetween the the dmg increase and the healing increase to ping pong intbetween and get none of the benefits but none of the drawbacks.

This will allow dps AM's to do more damage efficiently and healing AM's to focus more on healing. It will also create a more specialized way of playing Archmage(and shamans). Obviously the numbers can be tweaked a lot easier than changing the class mechanics. Personally think its a step in the right direction at least.


Or if you REALLY want to go hard on being this hybrid healer/dps:er you could remove the penalty completely. I mean if you gear towards damage you wont have any willpower to make your heals super good.
So having all that healing reduction dosent really make that much sense if you tweak the numbers a bit. You can reduce the base healing of AM's heals but make it scale way better with willpower so AM's dosent become a dmg/healing machine that noone can kill and hes just laughing at everyone while dotting and healing himself. Obviously do the same with the damage spells.

Taking advantage of the current High Magic system feels pointless and honestly its a terrible design. Blipping in between dmg and healing looks cool but honestly it's not really that great. Warhammer dosent really allow for hybrid specs. The game isent built for having that kind of hybrid mechanics. Not in term of dps and healing atleast. Swapping between melee and ranged seams to work for shadow warrior (somewhat atleast), i don't feel like it works for AM's.

I would like to add one more thing as a DPS AM i feel like we should have some help from cleanse spamming. Maybe a dot that explodes (similar to seed of corruption in wow) when clenased. That would atleast make sure that people arent just spam cleansing anything i put my dots on then dance on my corpse taunting.
Also Khaine's Touch should be made baseline and maybe even remove the healing reduction it has on it. Divine fury already has -20% adding another 20% is just meh. Just make divine fury -25% or -30% healing reduction if you really wanna keep it that way.

I'm sure i'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my personal opinion good or bad i thought i'd share it with you guys.
This is totally against the objective of the class mechanic....

User avatar
Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#8 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:18 am

I dislike this proposal to no ends, and it's over a class mechanic that I honestly think that worth to be checked at some point in the future, but I hope that for a decent change instead of this...
chimiko wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 am
(...)
Or if you REALLY want to go hard on being this hybrid healer/dps:er you could remove the penalty completely. I mean if you gear towards damage you wont have any willpower to make your heals super good.
So having all that healing reduction dosent really make that much sense if you tweak the numbers a bit. You can reduce the base healing of AM's heals but make it scale way better with willpower so AM's dosent become a dmg/healing machine that noone can kill and hes just laughing at everyone while dotting and healing himself. Obviously do the same with the damage spells.
(...)
I don't know where you get the idea of all these. The only difference in gear between a DPS AM and a healing AM is the secondary talisman of the staff. Not even there a true healing AM will slot a willpower tali over a defensive stat one. The base healing of AMs is only high cause they have extremely long cast times, so if you reduce the healing to keep in line with the other healers you have to reduce cast times. AMs are a robe-geared class and will die very easily at the hands of just everything once you no longer get bolstered.
(...)
Taking advantage of the current High Magic system feels pointless and honestly its a terrible design. Blipping in between dmg and healing looks cool but honestly it's not really that great. Warhammer dosent really allow for hybrid specs. The game isent built for having that kind of hybrid mechanics. Not in term of dps and healing atleast. Swapping between melee and ranged seams to work for shadow warrior (somewhat atleast), i don't feel like it works for AM's.
(...)
You lack experience. The full paragraph is wrong, specially the SW part which I think that you guess from hearings or whatever. Ranged SW is a meme class, and compete with tanks to see who has the worst damage per second of the game...
(...)
I would like to add one more thing as a DPS AM i feel like we should have some help from cleanse spamming. Maybe a dot that explodes (similar to seed of corruption in wow) when clenased. That would atleast make sure that people arent just spam cleansing anything i put my dots on then dance on my corpse taunting.
(...)
Their duty is to spam cleanse. You just want your stupidly useless hybrid to be buffed, in spite of the great need of a check that the main class role needs, and in spite of the healing classes being forced to slot group cleanse cause of trash DPSs like you.
(...)
Also Khaine's Touch should be made baseline and maybe even remove the healing reduction it has on it. Divine fury already has -20% adding another 20% is just meh. Just make divine fury -25% or -30% healing reduction if you really wanna keep it that way.
(...)
No. There is not even need to minimally argument why this is a terrible idea.
Spoiler:

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Oculta
Posts: 143

Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

Post#9 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:19 am

chimiko wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:32 am
Hi!

I've been playing Archmage for a couple of weeks now and i'm fairly new to the game.
I mostly play dps so what i'm talking about is from a DPS AM perspective not a healer one.

High Magic allows us to go between dpsing and healing. Speeding up or doing slightly more powerful dots/hots or faster cast speed on a couple of abilitys.
While this looks great on paper it dosent really feel good to play with when you're actually playing the game.
Sure AM's can do some cool healing and have some utility, its fairly overshadowed by both RP and WP on the order side. (I'm sure Shamans have the same issue on the Destruction side)
I'm not sure if this is because of community perspective of the class or if its actually just worse than RP/WP.

My suggestion is to rework High Magic completely. I'm not sure how much power the devs have or have time to do.

Here is what i think should be done:

To keep the whole Healing and DPSing separate i believe it should be remade into a power up system such as,
If you constantly casting damage spells a bar will start filling up increasing the damage you do but it's also reducing the healing you're doing. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage) while reducing the healing with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing)
Same goes for healing, the more healing spells you cast, the more powerful they become but your damage spells will have reduced damage. (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% healing) while reducing the damage with (5%,10%,15%, 20%, 25% damage)

Or you could try to stay inbetween the the dmg increase and the healing increase to ping pong intbetween and get none of the benefits but none of the drawbacks.

This will allow dps AM's to do more damage efficiently and healing AM's to focus more on healing. It will also create a more specialized way of playing Archmage(and shamans). Obviously the numbers can be tweaked a lot easier than changing the class mechanics. Personally think its a step in the right direction at least.


Or if you REALLY want to go hard on being this hybrid healer/dps:er you could remove the penalty completely. I mean if you gear towards damage you wont have any willpower to make your heals super good.
So having all that healing reduction dosent really make that much sense if you tweak the numbers a bit. You can reduce the base healing of AM's heals but make it scale way better with willpower so AM's dosent become a dmg/healing machine that noone can kill and hes just laughing at everyone while dotting and healing himself. Obviously do the same with the damage spells.

Taking advantage of the current High Magic system feels pointless and honestly its a terrible design. Blipping in between dmg and healing looks cool but honestly it's not really that great. Warhammer dosent really allow for hybrid specs. The game isent built for having that kind of hybrid mechanics. Not in term of dps and healing atleast. Swapping between melee and ranged seams to work for shadow warrior (somewhat atleast), i don't feel like it works for AM's.

I would like to add one more thing as a DPS AM i feel like we should have some help from cleanse spamming. Maybe a dot that explodes (similar to seed of corruption in wow) when clenased. That would atleast make sure that people arent just spam cleansing anything i put my dots on then dance on my corpse taunting.
Also Khaine's Touch should be made baseline and maybe even remove the healing reduction it has on it. Divine fury already has -20% adding another 20% is just meh. Just make divine fury -25% or -30% healing reduction if you really wanna keep it that way.

I'm sure i'm going to get a lot of hate for this, but this is just my personal opinion good or bad i thought i'd share it with you guys.
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    guirssane
    Posts: 9

    Re: [AM] Archmage's High Magic needs a rework.

    Post#10 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 3:08 pm

    Am dps is fine. The class mechanic allows you do throw some few heal here and there as dps so it's not that bad.
    As a pure healer he is worse than the others two but he has more flexibility in his playstyle so...

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