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[WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Swordmaster, Shadow Warrior, White Lion, Archmage
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Secrets
Former Staff
Posts: 414

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#151 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:19 am

GROTRUK wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 12:18 pm It's so fun to have the same spell twice in the same second isn't it ?
Image
Weird; looks fine to me. Guess i'll resolve that bug ticket unless you have reproduction steps.

Image

https://github.com/WarEmu/WarBugs/issues/16012

...

oh.

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carlos
Posts: 241

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#152 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:35 am

...not to mention that one mara and one borc can nullify a whole group of lions flying in... now, go figure it out (i pretty much layed it in your lap)
Starfkr


mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#153 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:41 am

Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 6:32 am Image
wiered, could have said same about woi, but...

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wildwindblows
Posts: 423

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#154 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am

Mara is just a morale/ap drain bot. Suffer with low damage output. Damage is around 100-200 like a joke. I think marauders damage is not scale with str or ws. Therefore stack toughness and armor. And wl's are op. Game is order biased. Thanks.

mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#155 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:57 am

Grock wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:50 am In the end, moral of the story: Interrupt needs immunity to prevent chain-CC like every other CC, and Pounce/SquigLeap should never had 0s cooldown.
Maybe 10s with Loner and 20s base could be alright, but compared to every other class even that CD is extremely short for that kind of ability, especially since they both still have their class's core mobility - charge and self-punt.

/thread
most aoe intterupts have either a poor range or are frontal or on minor aoe dmg dealing classes. They are nasty, but thats it.

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Grock
Posts: 918

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#156 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:19 pm

mubbl wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:57 am most aoe intterupts have either a poor range or are frontal or on minor aoe dmg dealing classes. They are nasty, but thats it.
I mean, WL one has the shortest range of them all, only 15ft around you, and has to be taken in masteries.
Engi/Magus are 20ft around target and Mara's one is a huge 40ft come in front of you

And this thread specifically complains about the weakest of them :lol:

Point is with cd reduction buff all of them can be farily spammable and create some very nasty situations. Most likely to be abused by Marauders due to very nice synergy with disorient tactic and large cover area.

A mild immunity for 5 or 10 seconds is all that is needed imo

wildwindblows wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:53 am Mara is just a morale/ap drain bot. Suffer with low damage output. Damage is around 100-200 like a joke. I think marauders damage is not scale with str or ws. Therefore stack toughness and armor. And wl's are op. Game is order biased. Thanks.
If you build defences slot use utility tactics to be utility king, don't be surprised at low damage

Wanna do damage like White Lions? Build glass cannon like White Lions
(except that thanks to Monstro proc you'll still be much less of a glass cannon)
Orkni 85+ (in-game Grock is not me...)
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notre
Posts: 84

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#157 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:35 pm

Since you take some time to write me an answer, I'm goin to do the same:
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am The WL cannot open with both immunities. They have a silence for 4s, a knockdown for 3 on a single target (both of these share the same immunity) and share the same morale root with Marauder.
Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.
I didn't say "open" y say put, first the pull and after the pull disable/root (before touching the ground, and putting TWO inmunities) and if you for any reason survive, morale root.
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am The critical damage on both of the classes listed in your screenshot might be somewhat close to that, provided that you don't have armor talismans; judging by your game knowledge in this post, I doubt you have armor talismans. You're probably specced full willpower and are rage posting because of your poor life decisions. Let me tell you; a 1k pounce that triggers 1.5s after the GCD is the least of your problems. I'd say Force Opportunity (regularly hits no futile strike healers with zero armor for 1.6k), Coordinated Strike for maybe 600-800x4 on a light armor target (even though we nerfed that ability, if you forgot), and Pack Assault (basically the same damage as Force Opportunity - but wait, there's more - everyone in the group on the next hit also does a bit of damage too, if they're near the WL when they use it!) - I've even seen some execute ability (Cull the Weak) crits for 1.8k on a good day.
Sorry mate i didn't post a screenshot, that wasn't for me.
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am The interrupt? Cool, you stop casting for maybe 0.3 seconds and - get this - you can press the BUTTON THAT HEALS AGAIN. Novel concept. It's not making it go on a long cooldown. Can literally cast again. And that interrupt has a 15s cooldown. How many WLs actually get a Swordmaster for Whispering Winds interrupts every 10s? What's the uptime on that - not 100%? You mean Whispering Winds has a COOLDOWN? ABSURD!
Literally any class attacking a caster can set them back, btw. It just so happens that positioning is a thing. More on that later in this post!
More than 3 buttons on WL, ABSURD!!
Talk to the healers, and they can tell you, even the dok can't cast (0,5 sec, you know), try you to heal a party with st instant casts when th entire wb is taking damage, instead to look in to it, you laugh and bully maybe because it's fun for you.
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am WRONG. Let me let you in on something. DPS Warrior Priest does more damage in a single attack.
Guilty Soul x4 on a Wrath of Sigmar (execute) crit? Say goodbye to your health bar. It'll deal literally 2-3k damage. In a single ability. On top of the guilty soul DoT that comes during it that doesn't crit, but holy Sigmar wills that it deals 1k+ over 9 seconds. And you bet it's coming to your face.

BUT WAIT- there's more!
Warrior Priests can basically do the same damage as a WL in AOE, provided they have a Swordmaster to pop Whispering Winds. You know that Smite ability? It's pretty cool, most use it to get righteous fury back up on a healer. But hold the phone; what's 5 seconds minus 5 seconds? 0 seconds, meaning off GCD? Holy Sigmar! That's a lot of Smites that can be followed up by execute on a now-5s GCD. They apply a heal debuff (incoming) every 10s, 5s with Whispering Winds. They also can bypass 25% armor. White Lion only gets that on like, what, 2 AOE attacks with the Hack and Slash tactic? AND- it lasts 20 seconds? And you have the nads to call White Lion OP because 'muh pounce does 1k!!111' - no, sir, I don't know what game you're playing, but that's not a lot - are you sure you didn't stumble into the wrong server on accident because I'm not sure we are playing the same game at all.
And what you are waiting to nerf that WP?
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am Oh, I didn't even mention SHADOW. WARRIORS. which have 60% crit in Assault stance, or '20% armor pen, tournament winning rampaging CHAMPIONS' of a class named Slayer. If you'd like me to banepost (hi Halta) about these classes, I'd be more than glad to - just not in the AOE WL shitpost thread.
And what you are waiting to nerf that other classes?
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am Look, I know moving out of AOEs is hard for destro and that spreading out to avoid morale bombs and other AOE skills like whirling axe is impossible for you guys, especially when the top warband guilds on Destro are in 2019 warband strats when we're in 2020 spreading out and using rampaging siphon to avoid morale drops. Next you're gonna tell me avoiding a Bright Wizard's AOE M2 is impossible when you have a class that, as of this post, can ensure you can never reach that point? Or did you guys figure out positioning yet and move into the current decade?
Maybe it's har because the "constant" nerf.
Those little changes on; 1- Morale gen 2- combat +/- you know are bad for Destro, wich depends on those morales to counter the damage gap Order has. Less morale gen and out off combat faster makes a little more weak the overall Destro.

Those nerf to the healdebuff on DoK and Zealot are the changes wich made posible again to have to fight agaisnt the annoying Bombings, (again with a push of a few buttons on another class).
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am The pet. Oh boy, the pet. The pet is pretty much a squig herder pet that cannot attack at range and needs to connect with its target to do any of its abilities. Every pet in the game, including the Squig Herder, Engineer, and Magus pets are immune to lava, have CC immunity while mounted, and so on and so forth. It's *just as squishy* as any other pet as it literally has the armor of a **** paper towel.
But it's the only one that can pull you, right?
Magus pets don't walk...
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am Oh, but you wouldn't know about that pet - as the primary AOE WL spec for warbands doesn't have you use one and has you run Loner, so presenting an argument that the WL pet is OP in a situation where it just doesn't exist is not only absurd, but abso-****-lutely hilarious.
You are mixing thing, i didn't say AOE WL + pet, and therfore the rest of this is pointless.
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am If you still want to argue that WL is broken when *literally every other order DPS does what WL does except better*, just consider this: you're upset that a developer plays the class, and it's easier to blame the developers for making the game too hard than to realize that the arguments you are making are just plain not based in reality. Especially when said developer is vocal and quite honestly, a big memer with a big heart. But please - continue to think that WL is the most OP class on order and that it needs tuned down and don't blame your gear, gear choices, your warband composition, the individual skill of the players in your warband, the tactics/mastery/renown spec you're running, the average renown level of the players in your warband, or the synergy between you and 23 other people you barely know that wanted in your city warband from /5 chat... makes you think, doesn't it?
Wrong again, i'm upset because a develeper is bullying people for telling him mostly the truth about a class that dev is playing and it's supposed to be more fixed than others(yeah, just because of you are playing it) and making memes about "game experience", and btw if you thing RvR is pushing 3 buttons to kill someone it's fine, can we agree to disagree, for me RvR is not that.

Also i didn't say WL is the most OP, because it's hard to say after this wall of text full of arguments about how all the order classes are better doing dps.
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am Nerdslayer was right, btw. Balance was a big concern on live. I'm glad we've corrected a lot of the issues from live and balanced the game lightyears ahead of the game that was available on live, from the bottom up we've reduced the gear gap in half (each gear set is 5 item levels apart on average instead of 10 item levels on live) and tons of countless class changes that have made the game fun to play again, while keeping class-defining mechanics in and balanced.

It's not perfect, and we're far from done. We're not operating on 'feels-based' criticism though.
The staff have corrected a lot of issues for sure and i think all agree to thanks all the staff for that.

But there still a lot of work to do on the balance part of the game,
- Balance, again if you think one BW, or 3 WL using interrupt can wipe out an entire wb it's fine, here is where we have the first issue (i say BW and WL, but applies to any class).

- Avoiding bomb wbs (wich already killed the game on live, and seems to be the coolest thing to do right now), why you don't make a meme about those easy winners and ask for a competitive game? Because you don't want really a competitive game?

- Premades vs pugs on cities (well, thats an utopia i know, so let's move to the next...)

- Fixing the match maker to avoid again premades vs pug so the premades can fight against each other (mmr premades....didn't seem to work, and all those brave premades didn't want to queue), "seems" someone (i don't know who) is happy just only owning pugs, but we all love a competitive fight right? And this isn't a player issue, both sides have this problem, and yes is a problem.

- Fixing gunbad (a required dungeon for progression), the system for the city itself (wich doesn't give a chance if you are on the losing side, and it's all just waiting even if you win).

- And so on...all are things that if you play a little you notice right the way, some of them forgotten on the bugtracker (that it's just a fun fact, nothing else).

Have a nice day.

P.D.
Secrets
The Issue with WL is it's has waaaaaay too many tools in a single class, the rest have the same tools but spread among other classes.
8x -> Zealot
7x -> Magus, rSH, Sorcerer, Shammy Heal, mSH
6x -> Shammy dps
5x -> DoK , Wich Elf, Choppa, Chosen, BWizard
4x -> Mara
3x -> BG, Zealot dps
2x -> BO, 3rd Shammy

mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#158 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:40 pm

Grock wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:19 pm
mubbl wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:57 am most aoe intterupts have either a poor range or are frontal or on minor aoe dmg dealing classes. They are nasty, but thats it.
I mean, WL one has the shortest range of them all, only 15ft around you, and has to be taken in masteries.
Engi/Magus are 20ft around target and Mara's one is a huge 40ft come in front of you

And this thread specifically complains about the weakest of them :lol:

Point is with cd reduction buff all of them can be farily spammable and create some very nasty situations. Most likely to be abused by Marauders due to very nice synergy with disorient tactic and large cover area.

A mild immunity for 5 or 10 seconds is all that is needed imo
considering skill point investment, cone vs all around and str requirment, the sm one is the weakest if you dont consider the buffs in my opinion. Also if you got short range on your spells, spamable mobility helps ALOT!!!

i wouldnt add immunities, since interupts maybe the only utility order maybe even with destro.

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casmCharlie
Posts: 11

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#159 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:57 pm

notre wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:35 pm Since you take some time to write me an answer, I'm goin to do the same:
Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am The WL cannot open with both immunities. They have a silence for 4s, a knockdown for 3 on a single target (both of these share the same immunity) and share the same morale root with Marauder.
Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.
I didn't say "open" y say put, first the pull and after the pull disable/root (before touching the ground, and putting TWO inmunities) and if you for any reason survive, morale root.
I don't mean to be rude or harsh - but don't you think maybe having this poor of an understanding of how immunities work should entirely disqualify you from any sort of discussion about balance?

Foofmonger
Posts: 524

Re: [WL] AoE spec too strong for city siege

Post#160 » Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:07 pm

Secrets wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:38 am
Marauder has a silence, AOE knockdown, and a mirror of the morale root WL gets.
Hey Secrets! Just want to clarify here, the Marauder does not get a silence. They get an AoE KD which requires a 9 point investment into Monstro. Are you perhaps thinking of the disrupt proc single target knockdown?

Anyway, I just want to say that overall, I agree with Secrets in terms of the WL in general. It's a good class, it's been tweaked and balanced well, and it's actually a shining example of the good work the devs on this server have done.

What I do not agree on however, is the the Marauder is anywhere near the same state as the WL currently, nor has it has the balance tweaks/QOL changes many of the other classes in ROR have for the past 6 years (since 2014). I actually think the REAL issue that this thread is highlighting is not that the WL is "OP" it's that the Marauder is under-tuned (and not in it's drain spec, which is tuned just fine).

Either way, opinions and "feel based" balance are only worth so much, so I plan to do a comprehensive balance review to clarify my statements above, using hard data.

Sincerely, - The Foof

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