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[WL] Cleave limb change

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Mordd
Posts: 84

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#31 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 6:45 am

Stophy22 wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:19 am
Mordd wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:37 am
Foofmonger wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:52 pm


No he's confused and trying to respond to me but misunderstands what I was saying.

You know you try to explain some basic things to people and they get all uppity I swear.
since it doent matter why complain about fixing it?
If you're talking to me, then all I said was, "excuse me" as you stated that marauder does more damage than white lion. I didn't know this was filed under complaining

If you're talking to foof then this ones all yours buddy, he might be confused as to who he is talking to again lol
lol /cheers

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Foofmonger
Posts: 426

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#32 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:27 pm

Specialpatrol wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:32 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:54 pm
5 AP difference is elf tax.
Please stop hiding badly thought out blanket changes behind smug remarks.

WL snare is effectively 20% higher in cost and does 2/3rds damage of the Marauder equivalent. Payoff was a longer lasting snare (which also made sense, since Destruction has more classes with speed proc tactics). Now, it’s simply the worst and most expensive mdps snare in the game.

Either adjust WL snare (and other classes’ snare ability as well, really - both Slayer and Choppa snares do less damage than Marauder, yet still more than WL) so it’s on par with Marauder snare in cost and damage (or vice versa, of course) and in line with your own “mirror” reasoning in the patch notes - or admit you didn’t really think this one through and revert it.

And In the process of doing so, maybe also reflect on the possibility that there might be a reason as to why most class abilities aren’t mirrored in the first place.
Again, I'll explain how this game was designed. You simply do not understand how Mythic designed the game. Whether or not this is "how it should be" is not a a judgement I am making.

1. White Lions have higher AP costs then Marauders in general. This was intentional by Mythic, as a way to balance out that the White Lion has a huge source of "AP less" damage, meaning damage that costs them absolutely 0 AP points, and it's called the pet. Do Marauders get a pet? No. Therefore you need to factor your pet DPS in when thinking about tooltip damage and AP costs. If the Marauder has the exact same AP costs and tooltip damage as the WL, then the WL has a pet on top of that, is that what you think "balance is"?

2. White Lions and Marauders do not have the same tooltip damage across the board. This should be obvious, and relates to the point above.

3. The White Lion snare on live was the version you see now. This "non-mirrored" version was a buff that was made by the ROR devs a few years ago, and it was completely unneccessary and overtuned. There is 0 reason that MDPS classes should have tank snares (200% up time), versus MDPS snare (50% uptime). So it's not really a nerf, it's changing the class back to where it always was and not being overbuffed.

4. The Squig Herder snare is also over-tuned.

So you hypothesis is just wrong, because you don't know how this game was designed, you don't know what was buffed when, and you don't understand why things are being changed back to the way they were. You calling the devs "smug" and "making bad changes" is just entirely laughable. This was a good change and it was thought out. You are the one who doesn't know these very basic details about how these classes were designed and balanced, absolutely ludicrous that you can come off so smug when you have such a lack of knowledge.

This is not a nerf, it's the reversion of a bad buff that gave the WL a better snare than other MDPS classes for 0 reason.

If you want my 2 cents here, the Marauder is the only MDPS class with a snare that doesn't have a pet (free ap less damage), or a mechanic that gives them 50% extra damage. So I think the extra 50 or so tooltip damage is a negligble issue at best. Could it be nerfed down by 50 or so? Sure, but it's not like anyone is complaining about Mara ST damage which we know is far below a white lions even with the extra 50 tooltip damage on the snare. I really don't care either way, but it's basically a non-issue.

This is just typical whining after a minor nerf for people who don't understand how balance works.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Foofmonger
Posts: 426

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#33 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:33 pm

Kwatchi wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:55 am
Foofmonger wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:08 pm
WL is given higher AP costs because the pet is free AP-less damage. Was part of the original design.
I guess the mSH needs to be adjusted up by 5 AP then.

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The mSH snare should be 5 more ap and also it needs a 10 second cooldown and 5 second duration. All MDPS snares are 10/5, so I agree. That is a perfectly reasonable argument to make.

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Kwatchi
Suspended
Posts: 118

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#34 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:57 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:33 pm
The mSH snare should be 5 more ap and also it needs a 10 second cooldown and 5 second duration. All MDPS snares are 10/5, so I agree. That is a perfectly reasonable argument to make.
Damn it Foof, stop agreeing with me. I think our guilds are supposed to have a rivalry or something. :D
Slayer - 40/7x
Archmage - 40/7x

Foofmonger
Posts: 426

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#35 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:33 pm

Kwatchi wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 3:57 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 1:33 pm
The mSH snare should be 5 more ap and also it needs a 10 second cooldown and 5 second duration. All MDPS snares are 10/5, so I agree. That is a perfectly reasonable argument to make.
Damn it Foof, stop agreeing with me. I think our guilds are supposed to have a rivalry or something. :D
:-), just because I play destro doesn't mean I don't want balance! No fun being overpowered or underpowered!

M4r10
Posts: 2

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#36 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 5:55 pm

drmordread wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:41 am
Jastojan wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:36 am
nuadarstark wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:19 am
Well the thing is, destro bitches about WL on forums so much they were forced to do at least something. After this and the SW debacle, I can't wait to see order completely derailing the ranged SH rework.
They should do something with WL anyway... this "everywhere jumping IK delivering" class was gamebreaking factor for many players who left this project (there were more reasons but WL was common denominator in few cases I know about) and it was here for years. I realy dont understand why did they wait so long. During the time (years) of "destro bitching" it was destro who get the nerfs mainly (mara, mSH), so please, be so nice and dont write about destro bitching.
What has destro crying destroyed so far ...

White lion ... nerfed
Shadow Warrior ... destroyed
KOBS...nerfed
IB... meh
WH ...destroyed (and you took the WE with it)

Really...when is destro going to stop crying. Seriously I log on to play destro toons and there are always 20-40 destro hanging around the SC quest turn in, bitching and complaining and crying. Every single day. Seriously, there are days I hide chat windows in IC.
It was the same on the live server and it is the same here.

People then wonder why the server population is going downhills.

slattie
Posts: 26

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#37 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:06 pm

@foof

"If you want my 2 cents here, the Marauder is the only MDPS class with a snare that doesn't have a pet (free ap less damage), or a mechanic that gives them 50% extra damage. So I think the extra 50 or so tooltip damage is a negligble issue at best."

first off, marauder has a 50% crit dmg tactic, but just how high can we get marauder crit?

with gear and renown and savage vigor, fortress axe, sentinel stuff, off sov ect I can get 45% on my wl. so marauder can get 45% then, additionally, a tactic to get another 20%. assuming 99% uptime on 20% crit tactic, math time.

attachment says 198 dmg so let's just combine these here. DAMAGE MATH SAYS:

(.65x.99x2.0x198) + (.45x.01x2.0x198) + (.35x198) = 325.91 avg dmg

(crit rate x uptime x crit dmg multiplier x base dmg) + (crit rate x uptime x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + (noncrit rate x base dmg)


now let's work some white lion magic here with cleave limb just to show you the difference.(assumptions are same crit rate and str and melee power)

loner tactic comes into account here = 25% bonus dmg. (now we don't have a lion that doesn't use ap, therefore neutering your ap argument.) loner is the widely accepted build tactic in cities. crit rate at 45% just like mara.

1.25(.45x1.5x134)+1.25(.55x134) = 205.19 avg dmg

lonertactic(critrate x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + lonertactic(noncrit rate x base dmg)

325.91 / 205.19 = 1.588
mara dmg / wl dmg = ratio of dmg

so. math says marauder does 59~% extra damage per single target snare use over a white lion even with loner tactic on. hmmmmmmmm is the tooltip incorrect on the career builder? I think perhaps it is.

wait I already did that research: here you go, logged into level 1 toons and found this ratio existed for the ability:

wl @ lvl 1 cleave limb 60 str= 33 dmg
choppa @ lvl 1 snare 60 str= 33 dmg
wl @ lvl 2 cleave limb 63 str = 36 dmg
choppa @ lvl 2 snare 69 str = 38 dmg
mara @ lvl 2 snare 69 str = 52 dmg
(didn't have data on lvl 1 mara snare, so converted choppa data I had)

we can assume that with 69 str the wl would do equal to the choppa snare dmg. so 38 dmg tooltip vs 52 dmg tooltip. ratio here 52/38 = 1.3684. ratio for base dmg on career builder tooltip 198/134 =1.48. so ratio is a bit off. but not much. let's do new math to see if we can get that 1.588 ratio of dmg down.

the curious thing about this is that when you plug in the ratio for actual wl snare for mara snare it comes out 52/36 = 1.44, which is almost equal to the tooltip info 198/134 = 1.477

we will use the new ratio because I think the ratio is related to a wl str growth rate and that's a different argument. we're assuming equal str and crit and melee power in this argument. so 1.3684 ratio it is. 198/1.3684 = 144.7(cleave limb new tooltip dmg)

new math here:
1.25(.45x1.5x144.7)+1.25(.55x134) = 221.57

325.91 / 221.57 = 1.471.

okay okay. after doing the math and research and crunching the numbers the result is that end game single target marauder snare does either 1.471 or 1.588 the amount of damage as the wl snare. not a 'negigble' ratio of damage. either way. at all. keep posting stupid **** foof and i'll keep showing your mouth that it shouldn't listen to your brain.

Foofmonger
Posts: 426

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#38 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:10 pm

slattie wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 7:06 pm
@foof

"If you want my 2 cents here, the Marauder is the only MDPS class with a snare that doesn't have a pet (free ap less damage), or a mechanic that gives them 50% extra damage. So I think the extra 50 or so tooltip damage is a negligble issue at best."

first off, marauder has a 50% crit dmg tactic, but just how high can we get marauder crit?

with gear and renown and savage vigor, fortress axe, sentinel stuff, off sov ect I can get 45% on my wl. so marauder can get 45% then, additionally, a tactic to get another 20%. assuming 99% uptime on 20% crit tactic, math time.

attachment says 198 dmg so let's just combine these here. DAMAGE MATH SAYS:

(.65x.99x2.0x198) + (.45x.01x2.0x198) + (.35x198) = 325.91 avg dmg

(crit rate x uptime x crit dmg multiplier x base dmg) + (crit rate x uptime x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + (noncrit rate x base dmg)


now let's work some white lion magic here with cleave limb just to show you the difference.(assumptions are same crit rate and str and melee power)

loner tactic comes into account here = 25% bonus dmg. (now we don't have a lion that doesn't use ap, therefore neutering your ap argument.) loner is the widely accepted build tactic in cities. crit rate at 45% just like mara.

1.25(.45x1.5x134)+1.25(.55x134) = 205.19 avg dmg

lonertactic(critrate x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + lonertactic(noncrit rate x base dmg)

325.91 / 205.19 = 1.588
mara dmg / wl dmg = ratio of dmg

so. math says marauder does 59~% extra damage per single target snare use over a white lion even with loner tactic on. hmmmmmmmm is the tooltip incorrect on the career builder? I think perhaps it is.

wait I already did that research: here you go, logged into level 1 toons and found this ratio existed for the ability:

wl @ lvl 1 cleave limb 60 str= 33 dmg
choppa @ lvl 1 snare 60 str= 33 dmg
wl @ lvl 2 cleave limb 63 str = 36 dmg
choppa @ lvl 2 snare 69 str = 38 dmg
mara @ lvl 2 snare 69 str = 52 dmg
(didn't have data on lvl 1 mara snare, so converted choppa data I had)

we can assume that with 69 str the wl would do equal to the choppa snare dmg. so 38 dmg tooltip vs 52 dmg tooltip. ratio here 52/38 = 1.3684. ratio for base dmg on career builder tooltip 198/134 =1.48. so ratio is a bit off. but not much. let's do new math to see if we can get that 1.588 ratio of dmg down.

the curious thing about this is that when you plug in the ratio for actual wl snare for mara snare it comes out 52/36 = 1.44, which is almost equal to the tooltip info 198/134 = 1.477

we will use the new ratio because I think the ratio is related to a wl str growth rate and that's a different argument. we're assuming equal str and crit and melee power in this argument. so 1.3684 ratio it is. 198/1.3684 = 144.7(cleave limb new tooltip dmg)

new math here:
1.25(.45x1.5x144.7)+1.25(.55x134) = 221.57

325.91 / 221.57 = 1.471.

okay okay. after doing the math and research and crunching the numbers the result is that end game single target marauder snare does either 1.471 or 1.588 the amount of damage as the wl snare. not a 'negigble' ratio of damage. either way. at all. keep posting stupid **** foof and i'll keep showing your mouth that it shouldn't listen to your brain.
Are you retarded? How does that have anything to deal with what I've been posting? It doesn't at all. It literally does more damage, thanks for that, we know it has a higher tooltip damage.

I guess you forgot the WL has a pet.... work on your reading comprehension skills. Also, you are being 100% disingenous with your "bad math". WLs also get a 50% crit damage tactic... which you conveniently pretend doesn't exist. They also get a 50% AA tactic, do Marauders get that? Do Marauders get all the pet damage and pet abilities the WL has? Since when are we talking about cities and loner builds? We weren't, are you going to pretend like Loner doesn't give the WL a 0 cd pounce? Where's the Marauders pounce? :lol:

Get your head out of your ass. Again, as I stated above, the 50 base damage difference is negligble, meaning I couldn't give 2 shits if the devs nerfed it down to the same level as all the other MDPS snares. Nobody cares, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference in Mara damage, oh wow I do 50 less base damage on a 10 sec cooldown ability, whoopity doo. Just nerf it so people like you can stop whining and making disingenuous forum posts.

The fact is, WLs had an overtuned tank level snare from some terrible past ROR devs that they never should have had. That's it, and now they have been balanced like every other single MDPS class, and their snare is back to the way it used to be on live and should have always been. The fact that you can straight-faced whine about this change by complaining about the 50 extra base damage the Mara has (when the WL as we all know does far better ST burst damage than a Mara) is laughable.

You want to try and actually do real math and factor in the AA haste tactic, the WLs 50% crit damage tactic, and the effective pet DPS? Or do you want to continue pretending like the class doesn't have any of that?

Regardless, nothing you posted changes anything about how these classes were initially designed or balanced. The WL has, since 2008, had lower tooltip damage than the Marauder. This is a fact, and it was by design, because the class was balanced to factor in the pet damage. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the devs, not with me.

(lastly, for accuracy, you can't factor PSM scaling like you did, your numbers are all heavily skewed into looking towards base damage and ignoring how STR and melee power scaling actually works in reality, this is why you do not use tooltip damage from the career builder or level 1/2 toons to accurately run numbers, I can happily supply controlled variable numbers for the Marauder snare damage, in reality, not theoretical nonsensical calculations that are filled with assumptions, also other assumptions like the Mara crit tactic having a 99% uptime which shows you don't realize it can't re-proc itself when its up and that's impossible, among all the disingenuous pretending like the WL doesn't have other tactics/pet).

If you are curious for some actual numbers (someone will have to provide WL):

Mara snare damage with 15/15 mastery path (so max), 238.8 DPS (str/mpower/weapon): Tooltip: 639. Damage on dummy (no tactics): 706. - Reducing the base damage by 50 would reduce that damage to 656 (since I'm not over-weighing a base damage difference and forgetting how scaling works).

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slattie
Posts: 26

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#39 » Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:05 pm

@foof

jesus, you're like the first fight in mike Tyson's knockout.

ur quote:
"I guess you forgot the WL has a pet.... work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."

my quote:
"loner tactic comes into account here = 25% bonus dmg. (now we don't have a lion that doesn't use ap, therefore neutering your ap argument.) loner is the widely accepted build tactic in cities."
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"


ur quote:
"WLs also get a 50% crit damage tactic... which you conveniently pretend doesn't exist"
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."

my quote:
"loner tactic comes into account here"
"1.25(.45x1.5x134)+1.25(.55x134) = 205.19 avg dmg

lonertactic(critrate x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + lonertactic(noncrit rate x base dmg)"

research:
Pack Synergy
"increases the additional damage dealt when either you or your pet critically hits by 50%, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A PET ACTIVE."
Loner
"you deal 25% more damage and the cooldown of pounce is removed, but you are unable to call forth your War Lion, and it will depart if it has already been summoned"


UR QUOTE

"also other assumptions like the Mara crit tactic having a 99% uptime"

math with 50% uptime:
306.6 avg dmg / 221.1 avg dmg = 1.38 ratio

math with 0% uptime:
287.1 avg dmg / 221.1 avg dmg = 1.2985 ratio

Ur quote:
"You want to try and actually do real math and factor in the AA haste tactic, the WLs 50% crit damage tactic, and the effective pet DPS? Or do you want to continue pretending like the class doesn't have any of that?"
"They also get a 50% AA tactic, do Marauders get that? Do Marauders get all the pet damage and pet abilities the WL has? Since when are we talking about cities and loner builds? We weren't, are you going to pretend like Loner doesn't give the WL a 0 cd pounce? Where's the Marauders pounce? "

My response:
when are we talking about anything other than city, foof? what's this thread about anyway? ah yes, 5 ap. a micro bias, yes, but still a bias. I made another thread that I encourage you to post on that explicitly focuses on city faction ability bias. also: take note, aa haste tactic isn't used in city, crit tactic isn't used in city, and effective pet dps doesn't exist in city.

post here please, I like making you look foolish.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39498

Ur quote:
"If you are curious for some actual numbers (someone will have to provide WL):

Mara snare damage with 15/15 mastery path (so max), 238.8 DPS (str/mpower/weapon): Tooltip: 639. Damage on dummy (no tactics): 706. - Reducing the base damage by 50 would reduce that damage to 656 (since I'm not over-weighing a base damage difference and forgetting how scaling works)."

I appreciate this, thanks.

User avatar
Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: [WL] Cleave limb change

Post#40 » Sun Jul 05, 2020 1:10 am

Spoiler:
slattie wrote:
Sat Jul 04, 2020 11:05 pm
@foof

jesus, you're like the first fight in mike Tyson's knockout.

ur quote:
"I guess you forgot the WL has a pet.... work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."

my quote:
"loner tactic comes into account here = 25% bonus dmg. (now we don't have a lion that doesn't use ap, therefore neutering your ap argument.) loner is the widely accepted build tactic in cities."
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"
"...therefore neutering your ap argument"


ur quote:
"WLs also get a 50% crit damage tactic... which you conveniently pretend doesn't exist"
".. work on your reading comprehension skills."

my quote:
"loner tactic comes into account here"
"1.25(.45x1.5x134)+1.25(.55x134) = 205.19 avg dmg

lonertactic(critrate x crit dmg multi x base dmg) + lonertactic(noncrit rate x base dmg)"

research:
Pack Synergy
"increases the additional damage dealt when either you or your pet critically hits by 50%, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A PET ACTIVE."
Loner
"you deal 25% more damage and the cooldown of pounce is removed, but you are unable to call forth your War Lion, and it will depart if it has already been summoned"


UR QUOTE

"also other assumptions like the Mara crit tactic having a 99% uptime"

math with 50% uptime:
306.6 avg dmg / 221.1 avg dmg = 1.38 ratio

math with 0% uptime:
287.1 avg dmg / 221.1 avg dmg = 1.2985 ratio

Ur quote:
"You want to try and actually do real math and factor in the AA haste tactic, the WLs 50% crit damage tactic, and the effective pet DPS? Or do you want to continue pretending like the class doesn't have any of that?"
"They also get a 50% AA tactic, do Marauders get that? Do Marauders get all the pet damage and pet abilities the WL has? Since when are we talking about cities and loner builds? We weren't, are you going to pretend like Loner doesn't give the WL a 0 cd pounce? Where's the Marauders pounce? "

My response:
when are we talking about anything other than city, foof? what's this thread about anyway? ah yes, 5 ap. a micro bias, yes, but still a bias. I made another thread that I encourage you to post on that explicitly focuses on city faction ability bias. also: take note, aa haste tactic isn't used in city, crit tactic isn't used in city, and effective pet dps doesn't exist in city.

post here please, I like making you look foolish.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=39498

Ur quote:
"If you are curious for some actual numbers (someone will have to provide WL):

Mara snare damage with 15/15 mastery path (so max), 238.8 DPS (str/mpower/weapon): Tooltip: 639. Damage on dummy (no tactics): 706. - Reducing the base damage by 50 would reduce that damage to 656 (since I'm not over-weighing a base damage difference and forgetting how scaling works)."

I appreciate this, thanks.
Why you decided to do math based on using loner instead of the crit tactic seems pretty smooth brained to me. Also trying to use math using loner spec instead of pack synergy and the ability in question is your snare.

City spec white lion's only put cleave limb on their action bar and win. GG ez. Nice try destro Guy.

The amount of straw-man here is insane.

The truth hurts but here it is
Spoiler:
Even if you think this snare change means anything, Wl's still have pounce and this gives them a speedboost, and a pet that can snare as well, so it's just a blanket change to make destro players happy while psuedo nerfing the WL so people can say, "we nerfed WL, look" Secerts said it himself on the same stream that he spawned a giant train and ruined a keepsiege for 400 ppl then deleted.
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