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[AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

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Arbich
Posts: 670

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#11 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:10 am

Starx wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:45 am
zenzo wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:12 pm
Starx wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:07 pm
The problem with AM is everything has a long cast time, we dont have good on the move healing and we only have 1 oh **** button. That and our buffs are inexcusably dogshit compared to the other two healer, runepriest/zealot being probably the most OP classes in the game in terms of the disgusting amount of non raw healing utility they bring to a group.

AM is the #1 priority target in any engagement as well, insta res is extremely powerful tool for warbands. So pair that with the above and you have a recipe for disaster. AM has place in 24 man, but its not because they are good raw healers. Insta res, puddle, drain, strip, penis pump, 24man taps. Just dont put AM's in a group that needs a lot of healing, idk how many monkey brained WB leaders put me in double slayer groups.

It's been explained much better than what I **** out above many times by better AM's than me but nothing seems to happen besides WL and SW tweaks and the curveball nerfs to meme specs that are only good in pug scenarios.
I understand your frustration, and I know it was already discussed, though it's a long time I haven't seen a list of proposal to make things better for AM heal. If you have any ideas, feel free to share.
There is so much you can do to AM/Shaman from a mechanic standpoint and also giving then new buffs/abilities and even introducing new mechanics into the game. I look up at the top banner and see "Alpha Phase" but that just seems to be something convenient to point to for the staff. Az was the last person doing actual alpha changes/experimental stuff to classes years ago, and while a lot of the ideas turned out to be bad at least it was keeping things fresh and there was a sense of things moving forward. There are a lot of classes that need love and really who knows if they will ever get any. We pretty much know whats gonna come out 3 years from now as much as we know whats coming out next week. The whole SW rework and SH being sidelined also kinda made me lose a lot of hope as well and I dont even play those classes.

There was a VERY well thought out post by a staff member for AM/Shaman mechanics that I cant seem to remember who exactly. But I don't think they are still around, and without someone on the staff to champion a class I don't really think anything will get done.

Edit: found it viewtopic.php?t=31862
Why do you think this is a good proposal? Maybe I misunderstand it, but for me this idea of grunbag would mean we will get rid of the mechanic (which at the moment still has some limited use) and would have a more boring playstyle.

About the proposed change to apothesis: I really don't want a buff to this tactic. At the moment AM has a few tactics that are more or less on par (apothesis is one of them). Merging apothesis with ishas encouragement would make this tactic mandatory and reduce diversity for the class.

What I would like to see is a disrupt strikethrough gain for each tranquility point to make the CC of AM more reliable. I don't think it would affect dps AM that much, but if majority think it does, you could also give the bonus only at 5 tranquility points.
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Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#12 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:53 am

AM mechanic is fine, all it needs is a decent spammable lifetap that a Heal AM with no offensive stats can use like Energy of Vaul.

I would simply suggest changing Balance Essence to something similar to Shield WP's lifetap; heals for X amount +%50 of damage dealt, instead of 0 base heals and %150 of damage dealt.
Could also mirror this to Transfer Force aswell.

If it ends up being too strong, its easy to balance, simply reduce that X base healing.
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DirkDaring
Posts: 317

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#13 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:54 am

Xergon wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 pm
Current mechanic punish u for either constantly healing or doing DPS, therefor most viable use is to constantly balance between 1 force heal 1 force dps, its hard and its also not GCD efficient. Sure there are some outplay potential, like stacking 5 dps force so u can have 5 strong and fast group heals, or other way, stacking 5 heal foce so u can spam 5 EoV (giving u have WW from SM) on the move. But all that is super conditional, extremly hard to pull off.

There was a plans for big rework of AM/Sham mechanic. Which would change current situation. The more heal force u have then u heal faster n better, the more dps force u have, u dps better n faster, at least thats how i rmb the suggestions.


But that's how the mechanic originally worked on live before they messed with it here a few years ago .
it was changed to not consume all the ranks build , and only used 1 at a time , but casting speed damage etc was not the as fast people, didn't like that shammy/archmage could stack magic and have insta cast spells .

the more you ranks of either heal or damage you had it would increase the casting time of long casts to be almost insta cast , or if you cast an insta cast spell it boosted the spell either healing aspect of it or damage , but it used all of the ranks 1-5 you accumulated just like execution's on witch hunter, but you also have tactic that give an extra rank so it builds faster.

So sounds like they are just changing it back, to how Mythic had it in the first place lol

so with 5 ranks stacked you could cast your group heal, or long cast single target heals insta cast while moving, but it would use all your points, or brain busta, big wagh, fury green, EoV, etc .

So sounds like they are changing it back, to how Mythic had it to begin with .

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Xergon
Posts: 614

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#14 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:37 pm

DirkDaring wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:54 am
Spoiler:
Xergon wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:32 pm
Current mechanic punish u for either constantly healing or doing DPS, therefor most viable use is to constantly balance between 1 force heal 1 force dps, its hard and its also not GCD efficient. Sure there are some outplay potential, like stacking 5 dps force so u can have 5 strong and fast group heals, or other way, stacking 5 heal foce so u can spam 5 EoV (giving u have WW from SM) on the move. But all that is super conditional, extremly hard to pull off.

There was a plans for big rework of AM/Sham mechanic. Which would change current situation. The more heal force u have then u heal faster n better, the more dps force u have, u dps better n faster, at least thats how i rmb the suggestions.
But that's how the mechanic originally worked on live before they messed with it here a few years ago .
it was changed to not consume all the ranks build , and only used 1 at a time , but casting speed damage etc was not the as fast people, didn't like that shammy/archmage could stack magic and have insta cast spells .

the more you ranks of either heal or damage you had it would increase the casting time of long casts to be almost insta cast , or if you cast an insta cast spell it boosted the spell either healing aspect of it or damage , but it used all of the ranks 1-5 you accumulated just like execution's on witch hunter, but you also have tactic that give an extra rank so it builds faster.

So sounds like they are just changing it back, to how Mythic had it in the first place lol

so with 5 ranks stacked you could cast your group heal, or long cast single target heals insta cast while moving, but it would use all your points, or brain busta, big wagh, fury green, EoV, etc .

So sounds like they are changing it back, to how Mythic had it to begin with .

I dont think they want to change it back to how it was on Live/MythicDesign. Latest plan was like this:

Revised Mechanic

The new mechanic changes this behavior away from having to nuke to make heals better to one that reinforces focusing on just heals or just nukes. We would switch to a seven-point mechanic scale, running from three Tranquility to three Force (3 to -3, if you want to look at it like that). At each point, the mechanic grants an effectiveness bonus or penalty to abilities, based on what path the spell is coming from. The bottom chart shows the example bonuses, with +3 being full Tranquility and -3 being full Force.


I’ll describe below the Bonus / Penalty in one tab, for a better understanding :

Power Boost / penalty :

+3: 160% of Path 1 (Isha) | 70% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 100% of Path 3 (Vaul)
+2: 130% of Path 1 (Isha) | 85% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 115% of Path 3 (Vaul)
+1: 115% of Path 1 (Isha) | 92.5% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 130% of Path 3 (Vaul)
0: 100% of Path 1 (Isha) | 100% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 160% of Path 3 (Vaul)
-1: 92.5% of Path 1 (Isha) | 115% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 130% of Path 3 (Vaul)
-2: 85% of Path 1 (Isha) | 130% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 115% of Path 3 (Vaul)
-3: 70% of Path 1 (Isha) | 160% of Path 2 (Asuryan) | 100% of Path 3 (Vaul)



• Each time you cast an ability from Path 1 (Isha), you gain a point. (Increase your heal, reduce your dps)
• Each time you cast an ability from Path 2 (Asuryan), you lose a point. (Increase your dps, reduce your heals)
• Each time you cast an ability from Path 3 (Vaul), you move a point closer to 0. (So, if you are positive it subtracts one point, and if you are negative it adds one point.)

That looks a lot different.
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zenzo
Posts: 12

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#15 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:31 pm

Thanks all for your share, wasn't aware of the mechanic discussion! This sounds great, hope it's still somewhere in Dev team Box, and that would greatly boost AM/Sham.
Though once again, it's not that I don't think it's a bad idea, though I feel Sham is clearly already in good shape, and this mechanic buff may too much buff Shams, regarding their surivability.

But just to understand, Grunbag was in Dev Team, and did the things explained in his post were tested? I was back to Ror around May 2020 I think, so not aware of any test that was done in 2019. Or these changes were totally stopped?

Thanks for your lights

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Roids
Posts: 46

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#16 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 6:19 pm

Heal should build healstacks and damage damagestacks.
Every Point in heal should give 5% faster casttime and cooldown reduction.
Every damage point 5% faster casttime and critrating (when u have 20% u would have than 25% with 5 stacks. 5% more damage would be a bit to much. Heal and damage stacks give 20% per point higher debuffs (just counts for toughness and mainstat debuff)
Very important to not make shaman to OP, RUN AWAY!!! break on ability use.
Both classes would get a stackburn, 5 healstacks reset would be 25% less damage taken for 10sec and 5 damagestacks would be 25% more damage for 10sec. Cd in this ability would be 30sec.

Starx
Posts: 316

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#17 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:35 pm

Arbich wrote:
Fri Oct 30, 2020 10:10 am
Why do you think this is a good proposal? Maybe I misunderstand it, but for me this idea of grunbag would mean we will get rid of the mechanic (which at the moment still has some limited use) and would have a more boring playstyle.

About the proposed change to apothesis: I really don't want a buff to this tactic. At the moment AM has a few tactics that are more or less on par (apothesis is one of them). Merging apothesis with ishas encouragement would make this tactic mandatory and reduce diversity for the class.

What I would like to see is a disrupt strikethrough gain for each tranquility point to make the CC of AM more reliable. I don't think it would affect dps AM that much, but if majority think it does, you could also give the bonus only at 5 tranquility points.
Seeing someone on the staff, and therefore isnt talking into a brick wall and has clout to get something done suggesting anything for AM/Shaman is good enough for me to get behind it.

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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#18 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 12:04 am

I'll give you the 3 simple fixes that I think would fix Pure AM/Heal Shaman, make the class feel better overall without being too different or too powerful.

As a Preface, AM on this server is slightly better than live because the Mechanic consumes 1 point instead of all points when you use an ability. I spoke to Secrets about my ideas and he gave me the current staff idea, which I'm not a fan of. Basically, the AM would get stronger at healing if it healed more and stronger at dps if it used more DPS abilities. I find this too polarizing and frankly.. boring.

What AM lacks is the ability to pump out fast heals when necessary and a bit of output besides the Desperation window, this has led me to this idea:


New Ability: Shifting Focus. 30s Cooldown (TBD)

Shifts all of your current mechanic points to the other side. This ability is instant cast and does not respect the global cooldown.


This would give the AM strong burst healing/stronger damage on a key press. It would also allow for quickly bursting AoE with the Radiant Lance tactic. Simple, effective, not a complete rework.

New Ability: Healing Rain. Costs 5 DPS points.

Consume all of your career Mechanic to apply a a heal-over-time effect to up to 24 targets in an area. Heals for x over 9 (TBD) seconds.


The other thing that AM and to a lesser extent Shaman is lacking is just an extra heal. It's a bit too reliant on Turret Healing and Healing Energy, otherwise the kit is fine. The reason for it costing 5 DPS points is so you can't as easily stack it with EoV/FotG spam.

I've considered an equal ability for damage that DPS Shaman/AM can utilize but I haven't thought very hard about the impact it would have on the game. I'm sure it would be fairly balanced overall, just very strong stacked with Napalm/Rain of Fire/SW dots, etc.


Desperation: This tactic now grants a portion of it's effect at all health levels, relative to how much HP the target is missing, growing to full power at 25% (maybe 30% HP) or lower.

Desperation is good but a 25% window is a bit too clumsy. This change would allow the AM/Shaman to have say 20% increased healing at 50% hp. The change may or may not be necessary, based on how the kit works after the other 2 changes.
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Onigokko0101
Posts: 59

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#19 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:17 am

Gurf wrote:
Thu Oct 29, 2020 12:20 pm
AM is great when alive and not constantly harassed, therefore they need the survivability level of a Shaman to be more viable in healing mode, maybe not the exactly the same level as they have other perks but at least somewhere near that survivability. AM is always the first targeted while Shammy one of the last, that shows you the massive gap between them in that regard.
I think you should aim higher then to be like the Shaman. I think both are in a bad spot compared to other heals imo, and if you dont want the instarez there isnt much reason to bring either as a healer
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Uchoo
Posts: 281

Re: [AM Heal] An open discussion for AM lovers

Post#20 » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:08 pm

Bump, would like to hear your thoughts.
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