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[WL] Pet reliability

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PlagueMonk
Posts: 117

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#31 » Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:41 pm

Well as of this weekend I have officially given up my lion and gone Loner so I don't care about pet reliability anymore (or more to the point it was too problematic so I gave up)

I would summon my lion and it would die in literally 2 seconds in a melee situation where I was on the front line. In most situations my lion was dead so fast I was alone anyway so I figured I might as well make it official.

I tried numerous times to get fetch (with charge and the speed tactic) to work but it was always the same thing......either the pet would die before reaching its target or the target would run out of range and I couldn't make up the distance without going into the enemy. The result was always lion death. The mechanic, while good on paper, is poor in execution out in real combat situations.

No pet most of the time meant no knockdown


I also tried to make pounce work all weekend at 45' and it was barely useful at reaching a target a couple times. Hardly worth the effort for 19% of my mastery points. So I will be speccing out of that as well

I would move to a slayer but I really dislike the look so I guess I will keep playing my 2nd class Elf Slayer, at least for a while.
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zulnam
Posts: 362

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#32 » Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:46 pm

PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:41 pm
I would move to a slayer but I really dislike the look so I guess I will keep playing my 2nd class Elf Slayer, at least for a while.
Amen, brother.

I have been in a melee mood lately, so i decided to dust off my pup WL and try out some "tanky" lion builds with Redgie, my pet lion, after reading this thread.

So I ran some tests on my 32/38 WL in Duelist gear. I figured with the bolster I'll be passable as someone in Conq gear stat-wise, at least for the ones I was interested: Wounds (W) and Toughness (T).

I ended up using Trained to Threaten as the buff (161 T, 182 W for pet), with Full Grown (160 W for pet) and Flashing Claws (10% parry for pet) tactics. This gave Redgie a 342 W boost.

Field testing proved difficult due to technical reasons, but I have to say during a 20-minute (failed) siege, Redgie died once. A more thorough tests needs to be done as this was suboptimal (RR70+, premade, invader+) but there were a few stand-out moments in which Redgie managed to survive odds you wouldn't expect. Of course I was baby sitting him all the way with Nature's Bond, but he constantly managed to survive enough hits for him to reach me with at least 40% hp.

Unfortunately, Fetch is a level 40 ability, but I can tell you my pet was reaching the enemy and surviving for a few seconds.

Try as I did i could not find the exact health points value of Redgie. If someone knows a command or a UI addon that does show you exact values for pets let me know.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Mara, SH

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PlagueMonk
Posts: 117

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#33 » Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 pm

zulnam wrote:
Sun Jan 17, 2021 4:46 pm
PlagueMonk wrote:
Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:41 pm
I would move to a slayer but I really dislike the look so I guess I will keep playing my 2nd class Elf Slayer, at least for a while.
Amen, brother.

I have been in a melee mood lately, so i decided to dust off my pup WL and try out some "tanky" lion builds with Redgie, my pet lion, after reading this thread.

So I ran some tests on my 32/38 WL in Duelist gear. I figured with the bolster I'll be passable as someone in Conq gear stat-wise, at least for the ones I was interested: Wounds (W) and Toughness (T).

I ended up using Trained to Threaten as the buff (161 T, 182 W for pet), with Full Grown (160 W for pet) and Flashing Claws (10% parry for pet) tactics. This gave Redgie a 342 W boost.

Field testing proved difficult due to technical reasons, but I have to say during a 20-minute (failed) siege, Redgie died once. A more thorough tests needs to be done as this was suboptimal (RR70+, premade, invader+) but there were a few stand-out moments in which Redgie managed to survive odds you wouldn't expect. Of course I was baby sitting him all the way with Nature's Bond, but he constantly managed to survive enough hits for him to reach me with at least 40% hp.

Unfortunately, Fetch is a level 40 ability, but I can tell you my pet was reaching the enemy and surviving for a few seconds.

Try as I did i could not find the exact health points value of Redgie. If someone knows a command or a UI addon that does show you exact values for pets let me know.
You made a lot of sacrifices just to keep your lion alive.....imho and you didn't even slot speed training. I admit I have never actively tried to do everything I could to keep my lion alive but we shouldn't have to devote all of that just to increase the survivability of what is basically our utility (KD, CC, some damage) while gimping our DPS. The Marauder doesn't have to do that which just makes us even weaker by comparison.

I even recanted and went back to using my lion this week, specced pounce and brutal pounce to see if I had better results. I had similar results though. I kept him by my side but even AoE Dots were killing him and constant casting of nature's bond every 15 secs was not keeping up with the damage. The KD I found difficult to use since since I couldn't just hit a button and have the target fall down, you have to wait for the lion's attack. I completely forgot to try to use fetch since I had moved it off my hotbar :oops:

IMHO, to make the lion more viable I would do the following:

- Give the lion a 35% speed increase and remove the speed training tactic.
- Up the damage mitigation of AoEs on the lion to 90% (since 75% doesn't seem to be helping much). This should include spell AoEs as well as melee.
- Buff lion's base toughness and resistances (unsure by how much since I don't know what it's base stat is)
- Trained to Hunt should be 70% to all 4 stats (no one takes this because 50% of 4 stats /= 100% in 2. Need more incentive to be master of none)
- Buff Nature's bond by 50% and allow it to cleanse all negative effects placed on lion only.
- Make Fetch work out to 80' (would be cool if the lion actually brought the target back with him instead of throwing them backwards :D )

I would also:
- Revert the recent ability move and give pounce back its 65' range / damage.
- Increase Pounce's CD to 20 secs
Last edited by PlagueMonk on Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Sundowner
Posts: 384

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#34 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:36 am

Field testing proved difficult due to technical reasons, but I have to say during a 20-minute (failed) siege, Redgie died once. A more thorough tests needs to be done as this was suboptimal (RR70+, premade, invader+) but there were a few stand-out moments in which Redgie managed to survive odds you wouldn't expect. Of course I was baby sitting him all the way with Nature's Bond, but he constantly managed to survive enough hits for him to reach me with at least 40% hp.
Basically making your lion into tank is useless in my opinion, because a) lion is to provide damage which he can't really do with TTT (sometimes it resulted in him hitting for 19 dmg due to the removal of roughness mitigation cap, because his basic str and ws is pretty low), so using TTH (if you are using AA speed tactic) and TTK (the best for lion) is more viable. b) he won't ever be tanky enough without babysitting, slotting speed training and using him that way will be more useful.

I wouldn't suggest using pet during 24+ fights at all, any impact he would bring is +50% crit dmg. Loner is weaker and won't add that much damage, but at least you will not lose 1 gc and 15 secs without crit dmg buff. even in ranked pet is rarely useful (only if enemy team does not focus on him at all) and useless if choppa or shield dok is present.

If we want to make pet more useful full-grown should me more easily accessible or core tactic.

Whyumadbro
Posts: 157

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#35 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:24 am

A friend of mine wanted to start the game and wanted to roll a WL, he asked me if what the most usefull build with lion was and if its vialbe in endgame....well i told him teh truth and now he plays destro :(

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zulnam
Posts: 362

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#36 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 pm

PlagueMonk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 pm
reply
Sundowner wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:36 am
reply
Like I said, the purpose of the test was simply to see if there's any spec combination that can make lion viable in RvR; we are not looking at DPS right now. The value of this is that, if we do find a sweet spot, where the lion has fair chances of survival, we can use it as an example for future balance tweaks.

I decided to level up my WL so once i'm 40 in Vanq (will take a while, playing super cas) I will run some tests again, this time with recordings and (hopefully) exact numbers. I even have a theorycrafting build I already want to try out.

Knowing if and how to make the lion more useful would be the first step in tweaking it at the base. We make the lion survive now; address the dps issue with it afterwards with the devs.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Mara, SH

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PlagueMonk
Posts: 117

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#37 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:56 pm

zulnam wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 pm
PlagueMonk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 pm
reply
Sundowner wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:36 am
reply
Like I said, the purpose of the test was simply to see if there's any spec combination that can make lion viable in RvR; we are not looking at DPS right now. The value of this is that, if we do find a sweet spot, where the lion has fair chances of survival, we can use it as an example for future balance tweaks.

I decided to level up my WL so once i'm 40 in Vanq (will take a while, playing super cas) I will run some tests again, this time with recordings and (hopefully) exact numbers. I even have a theorycrafting build I already want to try out.

Knowing if and how to make the lion more useful would be the first step in tweaking it at the base. We make the lion survive now; address the dps issue with it afterwards with the devs.
Please don't get me wrong, I may have been generally negative but that was towards the effort it took, not you going through the effort which is appreciated.

As a FYI.......brought the lion to Fort last night (Order was attacking), had trained to threaten up and I believe he only died twice during the BO stage but at the lord room push fight he died instantly and by that I mean.......I would summon him and he was literally dead again in less than 1 sec due to AoE DoTs. I thought maybe my lion glitched and ran inside or got focus fired so I tried it 2 more times with the same exact result.....I promptly ran around the corner so I could re-slot Loner. I know for a fact that SH can bring their squigs into City and have them survive so if WL HAS to slot Loner, there is a definite issue.

WL should not be forced to abandon their defining feature for end game material like Fort, City and Ranked.

And the reason why you cannot run lion ranked is, if they have a shield DoK, they will be able to easily melee heal off the lion due to its low defenses. So you are actually helping your opponent heal :o :|
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Detrytus
Posts: 18

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#38 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:39 pm

zulnam wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 pm
PlagueMonk wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:23 pm
reply
Sundowner wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:36 am
reply
Like I said, the purpose of the test was simply to see if there's any spec combination that can make lion viable in RvR; we are not looking at DPS right now. The value of this is that, if we do find a sweet spot, where the lion has fair chances of survival, we can use it as an example for future balance tweaks.

I decided to level up my WL so once i'm 40 in Vanq (will take a while, playing super cas) I will run some tests again, this time with recordings and (hopefully) exact numbers. I even have a theorycrafting build I already want to try out.

Knowing if and how to make the lion more useful would be the first step in tweaking it at the base. We make the lion survive now; address the dps issue with it afterwards with the devs.
What you expect form your theorycraft build? How you want to build your toon? No dmg from pet, no good finisher, no armor debuff, no heal debuff (outgoing). U have acces to aoe spec but with very limited effectivness cause of bad tactic choice (weak dmg output, no pressure). With dead pet no acces to critical dmg bonus from PS, no point to take Full grown over BF. You want to stack what stats? Weapos Skill ? Not worth. Even with parry tactic you have about 40% maybe? It's too little compared to dual wild dps. that is a build for someone who never play WL and dont know what is the role of dps.

You should test meta specs, trying to know what are cons and pros.
Pros are:
- very good loner aoe spec (for city, rvr wb too).

Cons:
- all cc tied to pet
- critical dmg bonus tied to pet
- bugged pet
- effective loner st spec but with 6 sov (+2 mastery points). You can take Pounce, FO ,CtW and outgoing heal debuff. But it means not enough spec points to take Primal Fury or Echoing Roar.
- very effective counter to hunter /guardian pet spec (just to kill pet)
- no good axeman/guardian spec with pet
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Meliannia
Posts: 40

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#39 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:36 pm

remove bugged to hell Fetch it either does nothing or kills the player more times than it actually works

give white lion player a mobile melee pull like maru and choppa called "Come To the Cat."
give slayer player a mobile melee pull like maru oir choppa called "Get To The Ginga."

or remove pulls from game.

stop the one way mirrors

then we would have a game.

User avatar
knick
Posts: 94

Re: [WL] Pet reliability

Post#40 » Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:46 pm

Meliannia wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:36 pm
Spoiler:
remove bugged to hell Fetch it either does nothing or kills the player more times than it actually works

give white lion player a mobile melee pull like maru and choppa called "Come To the Cat."
give slayer player a mobile melee pull like maru oir choppa called "Get To The Ginga."

or remove pulls from game.

stop the one way mirrors

then we would have a game.
both of your suggestions makes no sens. fetch works not perfect but is by far away from unusable. To be honest i like the way it is. People dont know what my lions intention is when my cat is running around or towards them. Is it a fetch or silence or a kd maybe she only wants to hug you and get some caresses. Play with it its much fun.

A tip here is to use speed training and binding fetch on a key.
To be honest if you play TTK or TTT "speed training" is a must have tactic.
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