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SW survivability : Toughness ?

Swordmaster, Shadow Warrior, White Lion, Archmage
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Aricept
Posts: 18

SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#1 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:39 pm

Having a RR66 SW (Vanquish, Beastlord, Genesis and both sc 61 weapons, running for Invader), I try to find how to manage survivability and wonder about the interest of toughness.

For what I understand, Toughness has the interest to mitigate every kind of damage. So, it seems to me important to have a least a "not too low" score in this stat. I tried this up to know. But, after conqueror gear, it is a real challenge, as we do not have bonus set here, and RAs have to be first in another places (crit, WS, BS, and so on). Also, Instinctive aim is for me a mus have tactic, a least before endgame gear, but it has a very strong impact on toughness.

I would like to know what importance you give to Toughness in your build and if it is important, how you manage to bring it to an acceptable level ?

Also, if it is not important for you, what stat do you privilege for survivability as "full glass canon" seems to be a bad idea. How do you manage this ?

Thanks for your insights, dear elven colleagues.

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Sundowner
Posts: 468

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#2 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:43 pm

For rSW wounds (mainly from set bonuses), for aSW armor (from talis because assault stance doubles armor received from items). Stacking toughness is not a good idea for most dps classes, because you will never reach toughness enough to be tanky.

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#3 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:47 pm

Toughness doesn't go well with Shadow Warrior, you really can't stack it efficiently. Especially when Instinctive Aim is one your two best tactics (and Bullseye).
Personaly I mix in armor talis, as it's pretty easy to get Ballistic cap and high enough Weapon Skill. Switching to Assault even as ranged makes huge difference when we expect non-magical dmg and need to kite into safety with guard and heals.

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#4 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm

I feel like we are given too little information to give you any real advice, because whether toughness is worth it depends a lot on the type of setting that you need survivability for.

To make a long story short, if you play a lot in organized warbands, and thus are guarded most of the time, toughness can for sure be a very effective defensive stat, assuming you have already taken Futile Strikes to level 3 (-crit% is usually seen the most important mitigation stat).

You could also opt for armor, but that will leave you with a gap in your defenses versus magic. You'll also want at least some wounds to make you more resilient versus morale bombing. But again, the setting that we are talking about here makes a lot of difference.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

Feomatar1
Suspended
Posts: 44

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#5 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 3:58 pm

Yea, talis nerf is asw nerf 2, on top to direct asw nerfs. Welcome to worst spec in the game where even retard with 1 button in nb can statcheck u easily.

Aricept
Posts: 18

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#6 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:01 pm

Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm I feel like we are given too little information to give you any real advice, because whether toughness is worth it depends a lot on the type of setting that you need survivability for.

To make a long story short, if you play a lot in organized warbands, and thus are guarded most of the time, toughness can for sure be a very effective defensive stat, assuming you have already taken Futile Strikes to level 3 (-crit% is usually seen the most important mitigation stat).

Of course, you're totally right. I am a rSW, playing AoE skirmish build now (love it !)

Most of the time I play with my guildmates in more or less two groups open RVR roaming. I now get a guard most of the time. Actually, in that setting survivability is globally OK for me (with 220 Toughness). Depends on placement, and so on. I didn't take Futile Strikes as I putted all my RA in offensive stats (Crit, WS+ (661 now), BS a little bit to reach soft cap). Maybe it is a mistake. In cities, ouch... (but, guess what, I am not alone in this case, and I think it is a matter of gear and Destro domination atm)

I also often play in solo pug sc or puwb in fort. Survivability really depends on who is on destro side...

Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm You could also opt for armor, but that will leave you with a gap in your defenses versus magic.

Yep, I totally realized that. That is why I putted more in toughness than Armor. Longue range magus were my nightmare...

Finally, for what I understand, trying to optimize survivability would involve -crit%, toughness, wounds, armor, in that order ?

My challenge is that with Invader gear coming, toughness will be complicated to get at the same level. I should reach 750/800 wounds but I am really not sure it will compensate. So I try to find how to manage all of this in a short future.

M0rw47h
Posts: 898

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#7 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:15 pm

Aricept wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm I feel like we are given too little information to give you any real advice, because whether toughness is worth it depends a lot on the type of setting that you need survivability for.

To make a long story short, if you play a lot in organized warbands, and thus are guarded most of the time, toughness can for sure be a very effective defensive stat, assuming you have already taken Futile Strikes to level 3 (-crit% is usually seen the most important mitigation stat).

Of course, you're totally right. I am a rSW, playing AoE skirmish build now (love it !)

Most of the time I play with my guildmates in more or less two groups open RVR roaming. I now get a guard most of the time. Actually, in that setting survivability is globally OK for me (with 220 Toughness). Depends on placement, and so on. I didn't take Futile Strikes as I putted all my RA in offensive stats (Crit, WS+ (661 now), BS a little bit to reach soft cap). Maybe it is a mistake. In cities, ouch... (but, guess what, I am not alone in this case, and I think it is a matter of gear and Destro domination atm)

I also often play in solo pug sc or puwb in fort. Survivability really depends on who is on destro side...

Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm You could also opt for armor, but that will leave you with a gap in your defenses versus magic.

Yep, I totally realized that. That is why I putted more in toughness than Armor. Longue range magus were my nightmare...

Finally, for what I understand, trying to optimize survivability would involve -crit%, toughness, wounds, armor, in that order ?

My challenge is that with Invader gear coming, toughness will be complicated to get at the same level. I should reach 750/800 wounds but I am really not sure it will compensate. So I try to find how to manage all of this in a short future.
Always go for Futile Strikes, what does kill you is burst (crits), if you're guarded and healed.

For beginners mix vanq/sentinel/invader/beastlord, for starters thats loads of stats.
You can patch your stats with Masterful Aim (don't use in any spec personaly as I've cap without it) and Instinctive Aim (use in every spec).

User avatar
mryay
Posts: 111

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#8 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:20 pm

Aricept wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Spoiler:
Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm I feel like we are given too little information to give you any real advice, because whether toughness is worth it depends a lot on the type of setting that you need survivability for.

To make a long story short, if you play a lot in organized warbands, and thus are guarded most of the time, toughness can for sure be a very effective defensive stat, assuming you have already taken Futile Strikes to level 3 (-crit% is usually seen the most important mitigation stat).

Of course, you're totally right. I am a rSW, playing AoE skirmish build now (love it !)

Most of the time I play with my guildmates in more or less two groups open RVR roaming. I now get a guard most of the time. Actually, in that setting survivability is globally OK for me (with 220 Toughness). Depends on placement, and so on. I didn't take Futile Strikes as I putted all my RA in offensive stats (Crit, WS+ (661 now), BS a little bit to reach soft cap). Maybe it is a mistake. In cities, ouch... (but, guess what, I am not alone in this case, and I think it is a matter of gear and Destro domination atm)

I also often play in solo pug sc or puwb in fort. Survivability really depends on who is on destro side...

Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm You could also opt for armor, but that will leave you with a gap in your defenses versus magic.

Yep, I totally realized that. That is why I putted more in toughness than Armor. Longue range magus were my nightmare...
Finally, for what I understand, trying to optimize survivability would involve -crit%, toughness, wounds, armor, in that order ?

My challenge is that with Invader gear coming, toughness will be complicated to get at the same level. I should reach 750/800 wounds but I am really not sure it will compensate. So I try to find how to manage all of this in a short future.
-%crit > armor > wound.
Try to get wound as much as possible from bonus sets and jewels.
Armor should be in your talismans slots. Another solution is to use a defensive set with bonus armor.

Instinctive Aim is not always the best option if you intent to increase your survival (like in solo play). You really feel the lack of toughness when facing a SH, Sorc and WE. Sometime it is best to invest in WS with renown point and use Masterful aim. But it all depends on your

Your primary source of survival is placement/mobility and the timely usage of Shadow Step (in a defensive manner) and Whirlwind pin. And of course, the best is to get a guard :).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RoR: SW 82, AM Heal RR51
AoR: SW R87, BW/R60+, SM/40+, AM/R50+, WL/R60+, Slayer R40+, DoK/SH/Sorcerer R40+ (+others)

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User avatar
mryay
Posts: 111

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#9 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 5:20 pm

Aricept wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 4:01 pm
Spoiler:
Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm I feel like we are given too little information to give you any real advice, because whether toughness is worth it depends a lot on the type of setting that you need survivability for.

To make a long story short, if you play a lot in organized warbands, and thus are guarded most of the time, toughness can for sure be a very effective defensive stat, assuming you have already taken Futile Strikes to level 3 (-crit% is usually seen the most important mitigation stat).

Of course, you're totally right. I am a rSW, playing AoE skirmish build now (love it !)

Most of the time I play with my guildmates in more or less two groups open RVR roaming. I now get a guard most of the time. Actually, in that setting survivability is globally OK for me (with 220 Toughness). Depends on placement, and so on. I didn't take Futile Strikes as I putted all my RA in offensive stats (Crit, WS+ (661 now), BS a little bit to reach soft cap). Maybe it is a mistake. In cities, ouch... (but, guess what, I am not alone in this case, and I think it is a matter of gear and Destro domination atm)

I also often play in solo pug sc or puwb in fort. Survivability really depends on who is on destro side...

Caduceus wrote: Fri Mar 12, 2021 2:55 pm You could also opt for armor, but that will leave you with a gap in your defenses versus magic.

Yep, I totally realized that. That is why I putted more in toughness than Armor. Longue range magus were my nightmare...
Finally, for what I understand, trying to optimize survivability would involve -crit%, toughness, wounds, armor, in that order ?

My challenge is that with Invader gear coming, toughness will be complicated to get at the same level. I should reach 750/800 wounds but I am really not sure it will compensate. So I try to find how to manage all of this in a short future.
-%crit > armor > wound.
Try to get wound as much as possible from bonus sets and jewels.
Armor should be in your talismans slots. Another solution is to use a defensive set with bonus armor.

Instinctive Aim is not always the best option if you intent to increase your survival (like in solo/duo/trio play). You really feel the lack of toughness when facing a SH, Sorc and WE. Sometime it is best to invest in WS with renown point and use Masterful aim. But it all depends on your

Your primary source of survival is placement/mobility and the timely usage of Shadow Step (in a defensive manner) and Whirlwind pin. And of course, the best is to get a guard :).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RoR: SW 82, AM Heal RR51
AoR: SW R87, BW/R60+, SM/40+, AM/R50+, WL/R60+, Slayer R40+, DoK/SH/Sorcerer R40+ (+others)

User avatar
Manatikik
Posts: 1249

Re: SW survivability : Toughness ?

Post#10 » Fri Mar 12, 2021 6:09 pm

Never ever invest anything into toughness on SW. it is straight garbage. With Vanq you should be around 1 or 6 toughness iirc if you are using proper setup.

Put your rr into FS until you reach 0 ctbc then all in range crit. Talis until 970/990 BS then rest into WS.

3 pc Beastlord, full vanq, 2 gen (rem/aspect), then either an exquisite diamond/sapphire (sapphires are pretty cheap) or emp t4 ORvR influence jewel as your fourth. You can swap to 4 BL/5 vanq for second Bs bonus and drop MA as a tactic if you want to run Bullseye but it’s not necessary in lolaoe spec.

Always run armor pot and crit/bs lini (bs 80 pot if poor) and with WP wounds buff should be 7.5-8k wounds which is enough to survive any drop currently and if you play properly shouldn’t die in any even fight.
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