[SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

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Catalyst
Posts: 3

[SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#1 » Thu May 06, 2021 10:11 am

So I really like the style of SM but i dont want to play SnB (thats just not for me). I understand that i wont be dealing as much damage as WL or something, but i still liked 2H sm while leveling.
I also understand that 2H SM got next to zero AoE damage (only 1/2 skills) and as far as i see no real utility. So guard + single target damage it is.

Questions is - how hard it will be to find decent wb for sieges? What RR i need to be usefull with 2H in cities and RVR?

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Fenris78
Posts: 307

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#2 » Thu May 06, 2021 1:03 pm

few aoe but Potent Enchantment are doing wonders with Wrath of Hoeth + Nature's blade ; nearly unmitigated DoT (ignoring toughness) for everyone in 30ft, constantly proccing.

Not too bad especially when the first tick of PE triggers instantly with your hits, meaning it's basically an add damage of ~160 spirit that will proc in 30ft aoe.

Anyway I disagree about the SM being few utility : 750 Group absorb every 10s (5s with WW) is very good, especially when someone is under Word of Pain (bye bye critical damage), the cast time increaser is bane of shams/zealots, and the 20% damage reduction is a great tool versus any hard-hitting dps threatening your backline.
Not to mention the ultimate lord-killer skill Blurring Shock, but it's less relevant in PvP.

About survivability it's quite good so far with 2H build : the +25% parry will constantly help vs melee and guard damage (ableit far too short of a buff, need to be at least 10s), and Wall of Darting Steel is the ultimate protection since it also work against guard dmg AND dodge/disrupt from behind (wich Hold The Line cannot do).

Also you basically have the best M1 for a tank : Wings of Heavens ; equipe some +morale stuff and go catch the backline to disrupt healers in the back ; intimidating strike, dazzling strike and ether dance are bringing them a hard life, coupled with enchant remove they cannot just detaunt and ignore you.

With defensive renown (max disrupt/parry, 3 FS) and end gear you can reach 550 toughness (with tactic), 5k2 armor (with 2-3 talis+pot), about 800 str, 300 init, and +17% base parry (around 35-38% accounting renown) with Great Weapon mastery tactic (mandatory for 2H).

It needs to pass on the crit chances entirely (but even with the tactic it's hard to go high AND be resilient, you cant have both or two worlds), but with this kind of build you can be a serious threat to enemy wb AND win most duels if needed.

And you can catch fleeing enemies 65ft away, 60% aoe snare + punt will secure many kills to your teammates. This alone is what makes the SM a particularly fun tank to play.

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Karl
Posts: 281

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#3 » Fri May 07, 2021 9:57 pm

Fenris78 wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 1:03 pm
few aoe but Potent Enchantment are doing wonders with Wrath of Hoeth + Nature's blade ; nearly unmitigated DoT (ignoring toughness) for everyone in 30ft, constantly proccing.

Not too bad especially when the first tick of PE triggers instantly with your hits, meaning it's basically an add damage of ~160 spirit that will proc in 30ft aoe.

Anyway I disagree about the SM being few utility : 750 Group absorb every 10s (5s with WW) is very good, especially when someone is under Word of Pain (bye bye critical damage), the cast time increaser is bane of shams/zealots, and the 20% damage reduction is a great tool versus any hard-hitting dps threatening your backline.
Not to mention the ultimate lord-killer skill Blurring Shock, but it's less relevant in PvP.

About survivability it's quite good so far with 2H build : the +25% parry will constantly help vs melee and guard damage (ableit far too short of a buff, need to be at least 10s), and Wall of Darting Steel is the ultimate protection since it also work against guard dmg AND dodge/disrupt from behind (wich Hold The Line cannot do).

Also you basically have the best M1 for a tank : Wings of Heavens ; equipe some +morale stuff and go catch the backline to disrupt healers in the back ; intimidating strike, dazzling strike and ether dance are bringing them a hard life, coupled with enchant remove they cannot just detaunt and ignore you.

With defensive renown (max disrupt/parry, 3 FS) and end gear you can reach 550 toughness (with tactic), 5k2 armor (with 2-3 talis+pot), about 800 str, 300 init, and +17% base parry (around 35-38% accounting renown) with Great Weapon mastery tactic (mandatory for 2H).

It needs to pass on the crit chances entirely (but even with the tactic it's hard to go high AND be resilient, you cant have both or two worlds), but with this kind of build you can be a serious threat to enemy wb AND win most duels if needed.

And you can catch fleeing enemies 65ft away, 60% aoe snare + punt will secure many kills to your teammates. This alone is what makes the SM a particularly fun tank to play.
What gear and rr are you in to get those stats?
____________________________________________________________
Order SM8X, WL8X, SW8X, WP7X, WH5X, BW5X, IB4X and a few sub 40.
Destruction CH7X, BO7X, BG5X and a few sub 40.

Strakar
Posts: 50

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#4 » Fri May 07, 2021 10:34 pm

Those look very similar to my stats if I was going 5/3 off sov/BL, maybe warlord plus genesis strength set. Fortress sword? (not a big fan of the BL sword). RR80. Almost there but projects to be about what he stated. Talismans, RP and swapping in Genesis Undying could make you more tanky; Crimsonwind with the parry/dodge/disrupt buff seems like it would be solid if going defensive. I think I'd end up more around 10,5k wounds, 600 toughness w/ rugged and 650 strength (Hunger lini) with Undying and more Wnd/Tough/Armor talisman. With sentinel ring and 6% parry talisman I could see near 50% parry with GWM tactic. Not sure if the ~150 str is going to make a huge difference in hitting power. I've seen some other posts saying 600 str is enough.

My personal preference would be to err on the side of doing what I'm supposed to do (tank/guard) while having a little extra punch for fun (I usually only run around 350-400 str with SNB), but depends what your WB needs and playstyle.

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zulnam
Posts: 530

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#5 » Sat May 08, 2021 12:00 am

2h SM is pretty strong dps-wise, among the strongest in the game.

That said, no. There's not really any reason mastery-wise to get one in an organised warband. Everything you can do, an SnB SM can do better thanks to having block. Your damage, while good, is still not strong enough to compete with pure aoe dps classes. Anyone who tells you otherwise is honestly delusional. There are only two tanks in this game that can run warbands properly: knight and blackguard. Both are run for their aoe debuffs and both have precisely ONE slot in a good warband.

The loophole is to join a guild that runs warbands and befriend them to the point where they don't mind having a squishy SM.

If you really want to play 2H only i suggest doing the above or shifting your interest to 6-mans. Those are usually fine with 2H tanks since there are less people doing dmg so every bit counts.
SW, Kotbs, IB, Slayer, Mara, SH, BG

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Aethilmar
Posts: 351

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#6 » Sat May 08, 2021 1:10 am

Yes, overall a 2H SM is not a particularly good tank (actually SM is the weakest tank but that is another discussion), however 2H SM is fine in RvR but it is a 6-man/duo/soloist thing.

2H SM is feasible in sieges just don't expect anybody to ask you for you.

I personally flip back and forth between 2H and Shieldmaster depending on my mood. Both are interesting in their own ways.

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detrap
Posts: 352
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Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#7 » Sat May 08, 2021 1:45 am

Catalyst wrote:
Thu May 06, 2021 10:11 am
So I really like the style of SM but i dont want to play SnB (thats just not for me). I understand that i wont be dealing as much damage as WL or something, but i still liked 2H sm while leveling.
I also understand that 2H SM got next to zero AoE damage (only 1/2 skills) and as far as i see no real utility. So guard + single target damage it is.

Questions is - how hard it will be to find decent wb for sieges? What RR i need to be usefull with 2H in cities and RVR?

I've used high mitigation/avoidance builds for 2H SM across all aspects of the game. In rvr you are the hardest-to-be-killed tank on order. In city/scenarios you the best order tank for handling guard damage. Yes you lose damage and utility, but you'll be the best order tank at driving and stabilising the front lines in orvr and healers will love you.

Don't think a Knight or IB can push upwards of 90% parry/disrupt and 70% dodge, on demand with one ability like the SM can.
Knight 8x - IB 8x - SM 8x / Chosen 3x - BO 4x - BG 5x

Fenris78
Posts: 307

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#8 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:19 am

detrap wrote:
Sat May 08, 2021 1:45 am
I've used high mitigation/avoidance builds for 2H SM across all aspects of the game. In rvr you are the hardest-to-be-killed tank on order. In city/scenarios you the best order tank for handling guard damage. Yes you lose damage and utility, but you'll be the best order tank at driving and stabilising the front lines in orvr and healers will love you.

Don't think a Knight or IB can push upwards of 90% parry/disrupt and 70% dodge, on demand with one ability like the SM can.
I concur to your statement, maybe except the damage part : my 2H SM is defensively specced and is consistently one of the last frontliners to die, while getting same or better protection score AND vastly superior damage than other tanks (IBs, SnB SMs and KotBSs), thanks to his group skills (Protection of Hoeth every 5s with WW, Stat stealing with Potent enchantment trigger, on top of usual tank skills) and spirit damage.

Hitting targets with barely mitigated damage (Spirit debuff + Toughness stealing) is very strong even it's by 150-300 hits at a time ; AoE damage (Wrath of Hoeth, Potent enchantment proc, Gusting winds and now WW) are providing a constant flow of damage wich will keep the pressure, where other tanks simply cant do that with such extend, not to mention they hit on armor and cant AoE debuff enemy mitigation.

So yes, since the 2H SM cannot really go full offensive (lacking Melee Crit and some Strength) without insta-melt he will not be the best finisher or ST dps one, but the constant AoE flow and group buffs is actually doing great for support : the stat stealing is also nice and mostly useful anytime (saving the Ballistic stat wich is less useful to steal from Destru), providing same or better buffs than a KotBS aura, and AoE stealing 114 initiative is actually very strong.

One of the only thing I can find "not too great" is the spirit debuff not very useful for allies (only the AM really benefits from it, and we generally want him to heal instead of dps). Otherwise it's an excellent tank both damage and protection-wise, as soon you can handle the mechanic and the buffs.

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BluIzLucky
Posts: 90

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#9 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:47 pm

As others said, you can run 2h no problem, I run it 99% of the time.

Solo, sc, orvr, Fort, City, PvE, basically anything except ranked with 2x SM.
Some competitive wbs will ask you to go SnB for AoE parties, but you can easily participate in any content otherwise.

SMs are fairly versatile, you should try it all, snb and full offensive.. yes, you will melt but so will they :lol:
SM - Arhalien +R80
AM - Shaheena +R80

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Koha
Posts: 165

Re: [SM] Any chance being viable in RvR/Sieges with 2H?

Post#10 » Fri Jun 11, 2021 10:01 pm

Cons
Lack of ST punt (even in cities and orvr it matters)
Lack of decent magic resist (heaven blade is crappy)
Parry buff is short
No aoe snare but M1

Pros
Ww
Group bubble
Wings
High avoidance if WoDS only
SH Kikass WE Melni BG Melnibone
WH Merci Slayer Koagul SM Kohagen

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