WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

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Yellovvjack
Posts: 19

WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#1 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:39 am

How does aoe WL fare in a wb vs a slayer or a mara (they got some nice utility) in terms of dmg and whatever or not they are worth taking over a slayer, if they run aoe spec without the lion? I have a lvl 40 mara which is why I include it here, as that'sthe only real mellee experience I have.

Thanks.

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Akalukz
Posts: 1377

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#2 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:45 pm

Slayer / WL / then Mara (chopa before Mara)

Slayer will require more support than either the WL or Mara, but the damage output is greatly increased. WL is in a good place, solo / group / wb it has it's uses in everything, even in kite groups :)
-= Agony =-

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Minisynn
Posts: 102

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#3 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm

You play DoT spec for warbands as an AOE WL so a huge portion of your damage comes from Jagged Edge/Tearing Blade/Hunter's Strike (from trained to hunt)/Echoing Roar, and while your damage on the scoreboard can easily top Slayers on both kill contribution and overall damage, it can paint a misleading picture (as wb scoreboards do in many ways) as it wouldn't be anywhere near as valuable without the heavy instant impact damage of Slayer aoe to synergise with it.

As far as utility goes, WLs generally run Fortress Axe for 25% aoe heal debuff on everything you're hitting with SB/WA, and Echoing Roar for constant AOE interrupts, particularly on enemy channels and in enemy heal lines in ORVR, which is super valuable for shutting down choppa train channels or just healer nests spamming aoe heals or resses. It's absolutely worth bringing at least one in every ORVR WB for the AOE heal debuff and interrupts, but to be honest most ORvR WBs probably would benefit more from stacking slayers for the raw damage output rather than bringing more than one WL - it's a lot harder to deal with immense instant aoe burst damage than it is to deal with heavy DoT damage which can be reacted to a lot easier.

They don't bring as much utility to a warband as Maras do though, as they don't have an aoe WS/Ini debuff like Mara has, and they don't have an AOE knockdown either. You also can't really use your pull to make picks in ORVR unless you manage to get out of combat for 10 seconds and swap tactic sets to be able to use your lion, then swap back to your loner tactic set again after you grab someone. Wls also have no option to build an AP drain spec outside of Warlord armour, nor can they build a morale drain/gimp spec - so again lacking quite a bit of utility that Mara brings, and Maras also synergise somewhat better with Choppas than WLs do with Slayers due to the 50% crit damage tactic/on hit damage weapon proc stacking making Mara damage a lot more frontloaded in the same way Choppa/SL damage is, as well as Maras being immensely tanky due to Monstro stance healing/armour pen reduction + toughness steroid + broken stance tactic for even more free ini and toughness meaning healers have to worry about them a lot less and can focus more on keeping the Choppas alive.

But counterpoint to all of this: Loner pounce go brrrrr
Last edited by Minisynn on Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Yellovvjack
Posts: 19

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#4 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:05 pm

Ty for the answers :)

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Akalukz
Posts: 1377

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#5 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:48 pm

Minisynn wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm You play DoT spec for warbands as an AOE WL so a huge portion of your damage comes from Jagged Edge/Tearing Blade/Hunter's Strike (from trained to hunt)/Echoing Roar, and while your damage on the scoreboard can easily top Slayers on both kill contribution and overall damage, it can paint a misleading picture (as wb scoreboards do in many ways) as it wouldn't be anywhere near as valuable without the heavy instant impact damage of Slayer aoe to synergise with it.

As far as utility goes, WLs generally run Fortress Axe for 25% aoe heal debuff on everything you're hitting with SB/WA, and Echoing Roar for constant AOE interrupts, particularly on enemy channels and in enemy heal lines in ORVR, which is super valuable for shutting down choppa train channels or just healer nests spamming aoe heals or resses. It's absolutely worth bringing at least one in every ORVR WB for the AOE heal debuff and interrupts, but to be honest most ORvR WBs probably would benefit more from stacking slayers for the raw damage output rather than bringing more than one WL - it's a lot harder to deal with immense instant aoe burst damage than it is to deal with heavy DoT damage which can be reacted to a lot easier.

They don't bring as much utility to a warband as Maras do though, as they don't have an aoe WS/Ini debuff like Mara has, and they don't have an AOE knockdown either. You also can't really use your pull to make picks in ORVR unless you manage to get out of combat for 10 seconds and swap tactic sets to be able to use your lion, then swap back to your loner tactic set again after you grab someone. Wls also have no option to build an AP drain spec outside of Warlord armour, nor can they build a morale drain/gimp spec - so again lacking quite a bit of utility that Mara brings, and Maras also synergise somewhat better with Choppas than WLs do with Slayers due to the 50% crit damage tactic/on hit damage weapon proc stacking making Mara damage a lot more frontloaded in the same way Choppa/SL damage is, as well as Maras being immensely tanky due to Monstro stance healing/armour pen reduction + toughness steroid + broken stance tactic for even more free ini and toughness meaning healers have to worry about them a lot less and can focus more on keeping the Choppas alive.

But counterpoint to all of this: Loner pounce go brrrrr
Cuz those maras with thier 500 crits in mostro/toughnesssupertanky builds are destroying order warbands. Also think (but haven't checked) that the tactic bug was fixed along with all other classes. Guess i never saw mara's as heavy front load damage class. Will have to reevaluate that. The AoE KD is kind of crazy imo super good skill. Need to go look at weapon proc stacking on mara :) brb
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Minisynn
Posts: 102

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#6 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:02 pm

Akalukz wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:48 pm
Minisynn wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:53 pm You play DoT spec for warbands as an AOE WL so a huge portion of your damage comes from Jagged Edge/Tearing Blade/Hunter's Strike (from trained to hunt)/Echoing Roar, and while your damage on the scoreboard can easily top Slayers on both kill contribution and overall damage, it can paint a misleading picture (as wb scoreboards do in many ways) as it wouldn't be anywhere near as valuable without the heavy instant impact damage of Slayer aoe to synergise with it.

As far as utility goes, WLs generally run Fortress Axe for 25% aoe heal debuff on everything you're hitting with SB/WA, and Echoing Roar for constant AOE interrupts, particularly on enemy channels and in enemy heal lines in ORVR, which is super valuable for shutting down choppa train channels or just healer nests spamming aoe heals or resses. It's absolutely worth bringing at least one in every ORVR WB for the AOE heal debuff and interrupts, but to be honest most ORvR WBs probably would benefit more from stacking slayers for the raw damage output rather than bringing more than one WL - it's a lot harder to deal with immense instant aoe burst damage than it is to deal with heavy DoT damage which can be reacted to a lot easier.

They don't bring as much utility to a warband as Maras do though, as they don't have an aoe WS/Ini debuff like Mara has, and they don't have an AOE knockdown either. You also can't really use your pull to make picks in ORVR unless you manage to get out of combat for 10 seconds and swap tactic sets to be able to use your lion, then swap back to your loner tactic set again after you grab someone. Wls also have no option to build an AP drain spec outside of Warlord armour, nor can they build a morale drain/gimp spec - so again lacking quite a bit of utility that Mara brings, and Maras also synergise somewhat better with Choppas than WLs do with Slayers due to the 50% crit damage tactic/on hit damage weapon proc stacking making Mara damage a lot more frontloaded in the same way Choppa/SL damage is, as well as Maras being immensely tanky due to Monstro stance healing/armour pen reduction + toughness steroid + broken stance tactic for even more free ini and toughness meaning healers have to worry about them a lot less and can focus more on keeping the Choppas alive.

But counterpoint to all of this: Loner pounce go brrrrr
Cuz those maras with thier 500 crits in mostro/toughnesssupertanky builds are destroying order warbands. Also think (but haven't checked) that the tactic bug was fixed along with all other classes. Guess i never saw mara's as heavy front load damage class. Will have to reevaluate that. The AoE KD is kind of crazy imo super good skill. Need to go look at weapon proc stacking on mara :) brb
I'm not crying about their damage being overpowered, nor that their frontloaded damage in AoE is *heavy* (Which it really isn't compared to CH/SL), just that compared to WL it's heavily frontloaded vs WLs being heavily DoT based which synergises better with Choppas than WL damage does with Slayers. That, and the fact that their Mutated Aggressor doesn't have positional requirements like Primal Fury does, so they're not punished for poor positioning as heavily either which benefits them sitting in the Choppa train more rather than having to reposition themselves behind the enemy frontline for channels, but then that's probably part of why WL has pounce and Maras don't.

Mara tactic bug wasn't on the list of those fixed, so I'm assuming it isn't since I haven't bothered to test it on my own Mara yet
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Akalukz
Posts: 1377

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#7 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:08 pm

Good points, I just never saw mara as big front damage dealer but will reevaluate that position. I can see the AOE being more front load probably, and I normally play more single target which is where my position probably comes from. I always felt like my WL was more valuable in Warbands than my mara for some reason, probably a personal preference thing, as I don't truly enjoy wb level fights overall.
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Cyrylius
Posts: 269

Re: WB: Aoe WL vs SL vs Mara

Post#8 » Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:47 pm

You can still bug tactics on mara, but with how the class works it's not really worth putting mastery points into hulking brute that you could use to boost demolition damage. Also comparing mara and WL is tough, as the classes are very different and IMO the biggest source of realm asymmetry. Order has more damage (slayer>choppa, wl>mara), on the other hand destro gets additional tools for crowd control on both classes. Because the way these tools interact with themselves is different to how damage does above one marauder is more valuable in a warband than a white lion despite the damage being lower overall. Also I always believed added mobility of lions makes them similarly easy to keep alive, but maybe not to the same degree as the arpen buff on mara.

Also about tactics bug, marauder is by no means slot starved. There are two tactics that can be bugged, and one of them is not worth investing into. And if its really needed, dropping JE is not a big commitment if you need to slot crushing blows. Obviously, currently you don't have to drop anything, but that's probably gonna get fixed eventually.
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