Fort Tracker One Week In

[Wam]

Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.

Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?

It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.

Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.

The alliance i am part of, and FMJ was the main driving force on destro... fmj was maybe 35 at peak... we started with 12 (some pugs) eventually 23-24 ... Ofc there was other pugs around who eventually came out the wood work when we get upper hand and momentum

order had FOG/RT and CNTK (drunk alts) and they had about 25-30 pug mix each

order collapse after fort and reboot and fog disband...

So it was premadeish vs semi pug+

I dont think any beavers or nge and we aint fighting ourselves...


Morale pumps dont matter that much in fort due to having to wait on BG (slowbie) to get m4 also so everything is in sync or wasted... If order had a bomb warband in fort maybe it would be different, maybe we would have to work a little harder and out rez them because 1 wb + fmj (1.5 wb) vs 1 wb ... the more organised wbs should win If pug's standby and do not support (which happens alot, too slow to react to whats going on) as soon as you bust a hole in the defence its pretty much RIP.

Order just chip away at enemy (because of heavy rdps stack) and that is main difference, they soften them up... but if you are a proper group the softening up has no effect so is meaningless unless you are a pug with no offence very bad healers and tanks, if you are a weak group it can wipe you, so of course you get demoralised and think you have no chance of winning because your group is not built or played propery... i.e no 2-2-2 with max resistances from buffs (be it chosen aura, or shaman/zealot buff) too many people run wasted tactics and slot junk talismans, I saw a chosen with sov and weapon skill talismans for example (class does spirit dmg, doesnt need armour pen so WS is wasted compared to more wounds toughness armour to be more tanky... same as some tanks slotting STR and neglecting defense, you are tank first and foremost and dps tanks are meme and melt like no tomorrow)

If you get chipped away at enough you get broken, order have successfully broken destro will by numerous defenses over and over again making it as hard for destro... hence destros defeatist attitude throughout this thread which is a joke. So when the going gets tough destro fragment and break. go to self pity excuses and blame class/realm balance instead of composition issues and L2P. Destro use to have a saying like butchers pass never falls, but with cities and destro gaining more from losing forts and winning cities they throw alot... this throwing mentality on defensive forts has come back to bite them on offensive forts because they see order bunker in... and think they cannot do the same and they has a faction only have themselves to blame. It also helps that some of order's guilds are more pug friendly and very active, destro have a over reliance on FMJ to get things done.

People probably bringing lowbie renown characters that need invader instead of their highest geared and experienced can also make significant difference if you really want a city.

Also unguarded MDPS do not contribute alot in forts, that is slight issue if they do not have support (dedicated tanks and healers) then they cannot push and are just rain of fire cannon fodder for order bw... so if not enough people are making balanced groups this effects destro more than order, so if you play a mdps on destro without grouping then can see why frustrated.

Pushed for 6 hours through 2 server resets... we had aao and was losing praag when we started and got chased by these bigger groups across rivers.

If you use your morales properly you have 25-30 seconds to make a impact and clear out a area, then help crumble other areas to ease pressure for your allies to break in... if you do not make a impact or die within 20 seconds then you got some issues that need to be worked on lol. Sarnai give good advice also.

I mean Order breaks when unseccessful too, its not an Order vs Destro thing, its just Order pugs have an easier time making Destro pugs break in Forts.

I do think a big reason for Destro losses is simply organization and player skill, 100%. The issue I have is mostly that Destro has gotten nerfed more then once due to things that were counterable but required being organized, so where do we draw the line on nerfs? If unorganized Destro has a 90% loss rate defending forts, how is that different then unorganized Order losing cities?

fair comment i cannot disagree as someone who played both sides... and was winning on order pre nerfs which put the training wheels in game to help out people vs morale bombing which has been nerfed into the ground, something order was generally lacklasture at in cities due to poor compositions and healer stacking together and non aggressive impactful plays.

Order was told to get "git gud" at cities, morale bomb nerfed negatively impacted destro more. Minor buffs to some order classes make more viable like IB, some minor nerfs to destro... things sway back and forth in cities, still depends on composition individual collective and leader skill level / assist. Things are fairly balanced but order did get some help intentional or not.

Destro now told to "git gud" at forts. Today proved it can be done, 2 forts success back to back. If things was broken would be 0 success for Destro. I think organisational issue and overstacking unsupported mdps. If your enemy has strong wb's defending you need stronger wb's attacking... if pugs have broken setups with people not knowing basics and their role puts too much pressure on your premade warband to hard carry with little support, and if defenders know they are the only/main threat it is alot easier for defenders to counter / neutralise.

[zij83]

Sorry for the duplicate. See below

[zij83]

Spoiler:

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Alot of players in general have learn to play issues, and also destro has psychological problem with forts and the need to be "carried" by premades ... too much self apathy and little belief unless they riding wave of momentum for clutch moments.

It comes down to clutch moments and s3 in particular... tanks should know how to tank, guard, push and m4 rotate... (do not stand in door way body blocking entire realm, you need to get through and harras and be the platform and solid foundation for your team) healers should know how to position and heal and when to use FM for superior healing when m4's run out... dps should know how to assist and build their gear/tactics and do actual damage and when and where to use their offensive morales and heal debuffs to create a kill zone for your faction.

You need to push in and clear space for the rest of your faction... and also be in sync with the rest of your faction. Too many times you have very bad back seat leaders try over talk those who know what they are doing, and sometimes trolls with bad countdowns and too many dry pushes against well organised defence... which wastes time and also makes some people give up after one push (lol and start the afk, which makes every other push afterwards a little harder) its very cluster**** ... also maybe too many people on alts trying to gear up instead of bring something more useful can be a issue of quality too.

As the attacker, you need to have precision and a plan... too many times this is lacking, if you do not have all the holy trinty tanks (m4s x 2) dps which do dmg and get kills and healers that are doing more than one group heal every 10 seconds ... this is more a issue for pugs than premades, but a premade cannot do all the work by themselves if there is equal amount of organised premades defending or more, the pugs need to carry their own weight more and this is the bigger issue on destro.

Destro try to stretch order and push multiple forts and sometimes can work but its very big gamble and some what defeatist and fails too often ... if you dominate you should push one zone and gurantee its lock with your strongest fighters .

Id like to also add... throwing, destro do this blatantly many times (hello defending third floor of fort and never pushing down once and let them passively take fort and have a city which they are more likely to win and farm order for easy gains) order very rarely throw if at all, its usually incompetence why they lose (if not lack of number)

Throwing, self pity and weird tactics giving up easy, gambling and failing is the biggest difference between factions (order used to get stomped at forts too and had alot of self pity and same with cities too and were told to "get gud")... forts design helps order usual rpds shine a bit more but if you get a proper melee train inside things even out pretty fast... the main fact is groups and quality is quite often poor and so rain of fire and engi and now sw too spam kills weak groups before they even push so cannot make any impact or difference (so the numbers advantage is lost, and as a attacker you have to do more work than defender) because they lack the holy trinty in their setup and some learn to play issues which make them fail in clutch moments. Pushing is very easy and simple, people over complicate things and don't utilize the basics of their class.

Also alot of puggies do not commit, when defenders are weak and ready to be over run, people wait in door way or outside for others to do the work before pushing in... its do or die... not standby on the sidelines giving defenders a breather and chance to fast rez and recover... you keep pressure on and break them.

Seems like a player issue more than balance or faction issue 160 people... you should have atleast 5 2-2-2 organised wb's or semi pug with pre morales. Then there will be smaller groups ganking or defending jail.

Forts are the worse part of game, but still they are part of the game.

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

What you're telling me is some of the best guilds from order came over to hold the poor baby destro's hand just to prove that all we need is to "git gud". So you are taking highly geared order players who are try harding out of the equation, and you think that doesn't play into the mix? Basically you are admitting to helping throw those two forts in a very passive aggressive way. I guess that explains why our numbers shot up all of a sudden. The data that is being posted in this thread is not some hur hur we won two forts so we have 100% winrate. We are actually posting all of the data so that it can be viewed and interpreted by the community hopefully in a non-biased way to make the game better. Additionally, if you look at the data, attacking doesn't seem to be the problem as destro has a near 50% winrate when attacking, I'd consider that mostly balanced. I say mostly because the reason it's at 50% is we have to do dual forts to downsize order numbers to take forts in most cases. It's a pain in the ass but it's a strategy we've proven is working. Defending on the other hand is currently around 95% loss rate. Maybe you guys can all come hold our hands next time we're defending and show us how it's done too. Your experiment here proves nothing as you are effectively gimping the quality of order players to teach poor baby destro a lesson.

[zij83]

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Maybe you can share your knowledge? How many organized groups did you have? What morales were you running? Did you push early to take advantage of Destro superior morale pumps or did you wait? What are the win conditions for Destro in forts? Not baiting or anything, genuinely interested. I think there is a lot of meta talk regarding cities but very little on how to actually take forts.

Although it is hard/impossible to prove I'd say it's a fair assumption to say there are as many Order pugs as there are Destro. The average Order pugs is not more organized than Destro is and there are l2p issues on both sides (I pug on both sides) yet the results are vastly different. Over the course of my ~4 months playing more seriously here I've seen entire guilds stopping to play seriously and are just now 6-man roaming in the lakes in between 1* ICs. None of the usual names can be heard in T4 chat anymore, there is no leadership. Perhaps they got tired of banging their heads against the same wall?

It probably is just a phase the server is going through and things will change one way or another but it does suck to play Destro in those conditions. I personally am ok just roaming around with friends and leveling alts to learn different roles & classes, just wish there were more Order out in the lakes rather than sitting on forts farming defense ticks when they have 1.5x our numbers.

Gearing wise however Destro is currently hard-mode.

He also decided to "prove" that we can win when attacking when we have a 50% win rate. This week in particular has been so bad that we couldn't even get to a fort to attack it, until suddenly a highly organized and geared order WB(s) leaves that side to come to this one. It's not exactly as if we're comparing apples to apples here.

[Dondabon]

So what we learned from yesterday is:
1) Import some guilds from Order to push for us
2) Synchronize it with FMJ with at least 1.5-2 WBs
3) Ask remaining guilds from order not to defend, we can push up to 1 organized WB with our 3+
4) This all should be done when destro has cca 100% more players
5) Somehow all this happened for 5* Aldorf... lets see if it will happen now, for 1-2*?

Easy peasy! All we need is for devs to lvl up that Aldorf faster, ban option to make WBs on Order side when Destro is pushing and force organized guilds that are crossrealming to log Destro when map progresses to forts. On top we need you guys in FMJ to be more active pls, those 2-3 events per week for 2h that you are running is not working for rest of the realm, we need you here at least 6h/day to stand some chance.

P.S. I still didn't see any post where WAM didn't come to prove how he, his guild, or both are awesome and others need to git good to be like him/them.

[Squizzel26]

So what we learned from yesterday is:
1) Import some guilds from Order to push for us
2) Synchronize it with FMJ with at least 1.5-2 WBs
3) Ask remaining guilds from order not to defend, we can push up to 1 organized WB with our 3+
4) This all should be done when destro has cca 100% more players
5) Somehow all this happened for 5* Aldorf... lets see if it will happen now, for 1-2*?

Easy peasy! All we need is for devs to lvl up that Aldorf faster, ban option to make WBs on Order side when Destro is pushing and force organized guilds that are crossrealming to log Destro when map progresses to forts. On top we need you guys in FMJ to be more active pls, those 2-3 events per week for 2h that you are running is not working for rest of the realm, we need you here at least 6h/day to stand some chance.

P.S. I still didn't see any post where WAM didn't come to prove how he, his guild, or both are awesome and others need to git good to be like him/them.

It looks like what we learned is that you arn't interested in any solutions that don't involve Order nerfs or Destro buffs.

[Hardkoar]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily

Alot of players in general have learn to play issues, and also destro has psychological problem with forts and the need to be "carried" by premades ... too much self apathy and little belief unless they riding wave of momentum for clutch moments.

It comes down to clutch moments and s3 in particular... tanks should know how to tank, guard, push and m4 rotate... (do not stand in door way body blocking entire realm, you need to get through and harras and be the platform and solid foundation for your team) healers should know how to position and heal and when to use FM for superior healing when m4's run out... dps should know how to assist and build their gear/tactics and do actual damage and when and where to use their offensive morales and heal debuffs to create a kill zone for your faction.

You need to push in and clear space for the rest of your faction... and also be in sync with the rest of your faction. Too many times you have very bad back seat leaders try over talk those who know what they are doing, and sometimes trolls with bad countdowns and too many dry pushes against well organised defence... which wastes time and also makes some people give up after one push (lol and start the afk, which makes every other push afterwards a little harder) its very cluster**** ... also maybe too many people on alts trying to gear up instead of bring something more useful can be a issue of quality too.

As the attacker, you need to have precision and a plan... too many times this is lacking, if you do not have all the holy trinty tanks (m4s x 2) dps which do dmg and get kills and healers that are doing more than one group heal every 10 seconds ... this is more a issue for pugs than premades, but a premade cannot do all the work by themselves if there is equal amount of organised premades defending or more, the pugs need to carry their own weight more and this is the bigger issue on destro.

Destro try to stretch order and push multiple forts and sometimes can work but its very big gamble and some what defeatist and fails too often ... if you dominate you should push one zone and gurantee its lock with your strongest fighters .

Id like to also add... throwing, destro do this blatantly many times (hello defending third floor of fort and never pushing down once and let them passively take fort and have a city which they are more likely to win and farm order for easy gains) order very rarely throw if at all, its usually incompetence why they lose (if not lack of number)

Throwing, self pity and weird tactics giving up easy, gambling and failing is the biggest difference between factions (order used to get stomped at forts too and had alot of self pity and same with cities too and were told to "get gud")... forts design helps order usual rpds shine a bit more but if you get a proper melee train inside things even out pretty fast... the main fact is groups and quality is quite often poor and so rain of fire and engi and now sw too spam kills weak groups before they even push so cannot make any impact or difference (so the numbers advantage is lost, and as a attacker you have to do more work than defender) because they lack the holy trinty in their setup and some learn to play issues which make them fail in clutch moments. Pushing is very easy and simple, people over complicate things and don't utilize the basics of their class.

Also alot of puggies do not commit, when defenders are weak and ready to be over run, people wait in door way or outside for others to do the work before pushing in... its do or die... not standby on the sidelines giving defenders a breather and chance to fast rez and recover... you keep pressure on and break them.

Seems like a player issue more than balance or faction issue 160 people... you should have atleast 5 2-2-2 organised wb's or semi pug with pre morales. Then there will be smaller groups ganking or defending jail.

Forts are the worse part of game, but still they are part of the game.

Haven't played destro in awhile

played destro today... attacked two forts and won two forts 100% success rate data can be spun very easily
[/quote]
What you're telling me is some of the best guilds from order came over to hold the poor baby destro's hand just to prove that all we need is to "git gud". So you are taking highly geared order players who are try harding out of the equation, and you think that doesn't play into the mix? Basically you are admitting to helping throw those two forts in a very passive aggressive way. I guess that explains why our numbers shot up all of a sudden. The data that is being posted in this thread is not some hur hur we won two forts so we have 100% winrate. We are actually posting all of the data so that it can be viewed and interpreted by the community hopefully in a non-biased way to make the game better. Additionally, if you look at the data, attacking doesn't seem to be the problem as destro has a near 50% winrate when attacking, I'd consider that mostly balanced. I say mostly because the reason it's at 50% is we have to do dual forts to downsize order numbers to take forts in most cases. It's a pain in the ass but it's a strategy we've proven is working. Defending on the other hand is currently around 95% loss rate. Maybe you guys can all come hold our hands next time we're defending and show us how it's done too. Your experiment here proves nothing as you are effectively gimping the quality of order players to teach poor baby destro a lesson.
[/quote]

Pretty much this.

-- I played destro today with my 2 wbs of friends in full sovereign and we had no problem stomping the remaining order pugs in 2 forts, balance is fine. K.

[Wam]

Some of the reading comprehension of me

Spoiler:

Cross realm for fort? so you missed the part when we was 2fg with 60+ aao originally fighting in praag, then CW, DW, KV, Eataine and Both forts? over 6 hours and 2 resets? mmmmmhmmmm (I thought you only suppose to x realm when winning )

You also miss the part where i have hundreds of thousands of kills on my chosen and lead one of destro's most active guilds for years... not including my other destro's. Pretty sure i have a long long way to go on order before i come close to anything i did on destro, during the best times imo on ror the unholy war vs the grand alliance... so even if im inactive on destro by our standards still pretty much destro

You really think pushing fort i think im awesome? its just a video game dude lal. I pushed the first fort out when it was released made some adjustments when learning mechanics on the fly took it on the third push and was disappointed that it was end content at the time because it was too easy (my initial reaction was is that it?) cities alot more fun just huge logistical issues. I don't think what you do in game makes you awesome or not, I just do not like the whinyness and crocidile tears about issues which are non issues, its all player based issue and you distract dev's with non sense instead of let them get on with things and use time more effectively.

It was same for order in cities not wanting to put in extra effort and organise... same for destro in forts, and also if you are only crying about defending forts then you have to take into consideration the heavy throwing that destro do... you know it was so bad that GM's had to mute people for advocating throwing on destro for a long time, meanwhile on order they had to mute people for over exhubarent pride too closely linked to RL stuff. Big difference in mentalities. Destro gained more from "losing" and letting cities happen and farm disorganised pugs in cities, those "amazing" 20 dps setup meta that order use to bring en masse to cities... so shoe has been on other foot lately and order farm destro in forts and prevent themselves being farmed in cities as much and destro cry about fairness.

War is not fair, its eternal.

History leason, when on destro and other strong guilds emerge it makes less action and too easy unless order have some big numbers, it was same in the past with Phalanx/tup/PF ... then tup/nrm/pf then tup/fmj/pnp ... order soon disappeared when those 3 guilds was in same zone and fighting over one another for crumbs of action.

FMJ are not our friends(although have friends in there) not our enemies either, we have different mindset but similar goals that sometimes clash, they are our opposition and i sometimes harass them with action... there is mutual respect there and a history linked to nrm times (our old allies) we usually hinder not help them... things are more balanced when we are split than together.

Back more on topic Its all down to organisational issues and compositions, this is not a balance or faction issue, that is player issues... just like it is or was for order in cities and their unwillingness to "get gud" and team up / organise properly and then cry about being rewarded BIS for losing.

Its a mentality issue for destro, you breed a culture of throwing and then wonder why you cannot defend when you passively sit in third floor of fort while order grinds lord 100-0% no push down and morale bomb... just sit and watch, that is throwing on masse. Yet you need a spreadsheet to tell you order are too op because as a faction you choose to play this passively? please get real, you want cake and eat it without any action in the kitchen.

I was moderately geared but no sov, not needed although would be nice to have. I might come across a certain way in written format but those of you with pre agendas will always mis judge me because I offer a different opinion to the biased one you want. Crushed order many many times to the point they was broken and unhealthy for some of their guilds and server, in times of need swapped over to help fill the void so we don't have broken server and better action... some have no idea how much extra effort it requires to do everything x2 and how easy pvedoorhammer would of been to pick one side and stick to it. Maybe my truths too much for some too handle, i can only base it on my experiences. Ive written guides and given alot of advice to newbies, and I call a spade a spade with no realm bias. So me telling destro to "git gud" at forts is just like telling order to "git gud" at cities. Its justified with the massive destro pity party going on in this thread people with agendas wanting to get nerfs because of their own failures and do not like fights with resistance. Nerfs are bad for game see recent kotbs/chosen drama. Nerfs can have ripple effect and a unhealthy one to balance with unintended consequence.

You can only beat whats infront of you... there was 75-90 from same alliance on their respective comms that is something. Dragonwake was the test and we broke enemy there with clear/trusted communication at the pve part where a few wb's chased our group past dragon and fmj hit them from other side we turned around and helped them. Then kept momentum despite server reboots getting in the way.

If we was playing our mains on destro regularly with proper compo i really doubt order would get to forts unless we was super outnumbered or started before our start. If I cared about campaign like a few years ago no chance I prefer more smaller scale over zerg stuff anyways... i've done more than enough warband smashing

[zij83]

So what we learned from yesterday is:
1) Import some guilds from Order to push for us
2) Synchronize it with FMJ with at least 1.5-2 WBs
3) Ask remaining guilds from order not to defend, we can push up to 1 organized WB with our 3+
4) This all should be done when destro has cca 100% more players
5) Somehow all this happened for 5* Aldorf... lets see if it will happen now, for 1-2*?

Easy peasy! All we need is for devs to lvl up that Aldorf faster, ban option to make WBs on Order side when Destro is pushing and force organized guilds that are crossrealming to log Destro when map progresses to forts. On top we need you guys in FMJ to be more active pls, those 2-3 events per week for 2h that you are running is not working for rest of the realm, we need you here at least 6h/day to stand some chance.

P.S. I still didn't see any post where WAM didn't come to prove how he, his guild, or both are awesome and others need to git good to be like him/them.

It looks like what we learned is that you arn't interested in any solutions that don't involve Order nerfs or Destro buffs.

No one is here asking for nerfs or buffs, what people are asking for is the acknowledgement of a legitimate issue that is driving destro players away, or causing them to just not give a **** about defending forts because it isn't worth their time.

[Wam]

So what we learned from yesterday is:
1) Import some guilds from Order to push for us
2) Synchronize it with FMJ with at least 1.5-2 WBs
3) Ask remaining guilds from order not to defend, we can push up to 1 organized WB with our 3+
4) This all should be done when destro has cca 100% more players
5) Somehow all this happened for 5* Aldorf... lets see if it will happen now, for 1-2*?

Easy peasy! All we need is for devs to lvl up that Aldorf faster, ban option to make WBs on Order side when Destro is pushing and force organized guilds that are crossrealming to log Destro when map progresses to forts. On top we need you guys in FMJ to be more active pls, those 2-3 events per week for 2h that you are running is not working for rest of the realm, we need you here at least 6h/day to stand some chance.

P.S. I still didn't see any post where WAM didn't come to prove how he, his guild, or both are awesome and others need to git good to be like him/them.

It looks like what we learned is that you arn't interested in any solutions that don't involve Order nerfs or Destro buffs.

No one is here asking for nerfs or buffs, what people are asking for is the acknowledgement of a legitimate issue that is driving destro players away, or causing them to just not give a **** about defending forts because it isn't worth their time.

Could of said same thing about cities and order soloer's ...

Improve destro player infrastructure... i.e bigger and better guilds or alliances = more organised defence

more pug leaders who have the patience for that **** and a clue of what they are doing

its only a issue if you believe in it just like the boogeyman

Spoiler:

again people are glossing over the fact that destro promoted heavy throwing of forts with weak defense / silly moves just to gain more rewards (cities) gm's had to monitor chat and mute / warn people... it still goes on (defend third floor no attempt to defend lord) nothing said or done about it despite it majorly blatant throwing, how can a faction turn around and complain when it does this behaviour on numerous occasions its not a one off. That is a cultural and player problem. You need leaders who firstly want to defend then know how too.

I can take your point about it not being worth your/destro time as... let it die get city and city gives more sovereign medals than defending a fort and getting just one for winning. Which is factually true you get more for losing, but order have a different mentality and dont care about the rewards they have more realm pride and do it to spite destro and get under your skin which seems to be working as payback for being farmed in cities lol... destro have opportunist mentality and less realm pride except for the destro bleeding tears in this thread wanting cake and to eat it thinking about conspiracies and imbalances ... if you tell a lie long enough you start to believe its true ... it doesn't make it true but you still believe it is regardless.

If cities are fine, forts are fine... if destro put half as much effort into defending forts as they do forum crying im pretty sure your defense rate would increase drastically.

Its sad to see how far destro has fallen from the past... also you can make alot of medals without cities these days as a alternative anyways because dev's have been kind. Get loot for losing? get loot for bags? get loot for kills? I understand people get frustrated because defenders dont always roll over but its part and parcel of the game if played in the right spirit (without intentional throwing) only way to over come this is improve your foundations, your organisation and co-ordination ... i do not see people trying to do this i see people throw toys out of pram, cannot win i quit LMAO. These forum threads try to put pressure on dev's with blackmail i quit if you do not nerf order and forts so we auto win every single time no matter what we do. Without realising the game goes in cycles and has done for years LMAO. You win some, you lose some.

Population already been reduced to make it easier for you

Maybe issue is more complex because of players greed/laziness you know how many afk after one wipe... or how many try get some contribution in one fort then try get contribution in another fort to maximise their reward without caring about the war effort to increase personal gain over improve realm chances of success... yet of course its the other side is too over powered, its not our own player made issues and choices. You see numbers dip all the time when things not going so well on destro, instead of dust self off and try try and try again. Leaching, rewards and motivation are all inter linked for destro... order's motivation is to screw with you regardless of reward. You cannot abuse imbalance of numbers/zerg in forts as much as orvr, you need to co-ordinate.