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DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 422

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#11 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am

pvprangergod wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:35 am
shield has already been nerfed to the point its a totally useless spec just like "dps" spec
https://imgur.com/a/mWKYPrg

How do you mean shield has been nerfed to totally useless ? I know that Screenshot's from target dummy dont mean much but it still is 3300 AOE heals from divine strike. In real fight 2300 AOE heal is closer to truth, while healing party for 1000+ easily with AP using melee heal and AP based melee heals dont exist on DPS dok/wp anymore. I mean even Judgement/FoK now uses rf/se which is just totally upside down. These skills have always been the way for dps dok/wp to HAVE A SMALL CHANCE TO SURVIVE WHEN AGAINST KITER by spamming judgement/FoK and gaining 15 rf/se per hit so can use hot, and with luck you get enemy snared with Celerity and extra luck Run Away procs. There is a reason why FoK/Judgement used AP and did okay dmg for "throw dagger" like skill, to have a chance against kiters.

Now all that is impossible when it uses rf/se instead of ap... Can you tell me how Shield has been nerfed to useless?

EDIT; Also DPSDOK has good enough dmg for ranked, problem is that melee healing is impossible now with DW/2h specs. Which was the original point of the classess... MELEE HEAL. Books/Chalices didnt have any rf/se gains for first year of Warhammer or so. After that was introduced it didnt took long time that people realized that OH DAYMN Book/Chalice WP/DOK is now super good in BACKLINE healing which the class never supposed to be.

Shields for dok/wp should be removed because 30-40 block with insane high aoe melee heals and super nice party melee heals. Just rework new shield skills to work with DW/2h and adjust them as needed.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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sergteo
Posts: 33

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#12 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:18 pm

One of the easiest ways to make DPS DOK/WP a competent dps would be to remove it's healing capabilities of their channelings (Rend Soul for DOK, Divine Assault for WP) and instead add a flat damage increase so it becomes a channeling damaging melee skill much like Slayer's Retribution or WE's Ruthless Assault. Also for dps dok to have some sort of AP regain, maybe changing Horrifying Offering tactic so Consume Strenght gives you AP instead of making the enemy lose it. Warrior Priest has an excelent AP regen in the form of m2 Divine Replenishment, wich becomes even better when you have to do the job of frontline bruiser and need to apply pressure systematically.

I agree both shield wp and dok (specially dok) are pretty overtuned right now, but i think it's a well known fact already.

Having both fully geared dps WP and dps DOK and playing them on a constant basis i see that the main problem is that the class doesn't have a definitive role when it comes to it's damage:

It can do aoe damage, but it's pretty weak, it has sustained dps in the form of a few dots (guilty soul, prayer of righteousness, castigation / sanguinary extension and covenant of celerity), but they dont apply enough pressure, and it has burst in the form of armor bypass and execute, but they are not as decisive as they seem since you need another forms of damage in order to create a cascade effect.

They are both oriented to single target damage but they lack tools to become a threat on their own, instead they are not bad "support" dps but that should not be the role of any competent dps spec. As for the argument "but it can still heal", as i said, remove the healing while on dps spec, and increase the flat damage, that would be the first step in the right direction.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 422

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#13 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:21 pm

sergteo wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:18 pm
One of the easiest ways to make DPS DOK/WP a competent dps would be to remove it's healing capabilities of their channelings (Rend Soul for DOK, Divine Assault for WP) and instead add a flat damage increase so it becomes a channeling damaging melee skill much like Slayer's Retribution or WE's Ruthless Assault. Also for dps dok to have some sort of AP regain, maybe changing Horrifying Offering tactic so Consume Strenght gives you AP instead of making the enemy lose it. Warrior Priest has an excelent AP regen in the form of m2 Divine Replenishment, wich becomes even better when you have to do the job of frontline bruiser and need to apply pressure systematically.

I agree both shield wp and dok (specially dok) are pretty overtuned right now, but i think it's a well known fact already.

Having both fully geared dps WP and dps DOK and playing them on a constant basis i see that the main problem is that the class doesn't have a definitive role when it comes to it's damage:

It can do aoe damage, but it's pretty weak, it has sustained dps in the form of a few dots (guilty soul, prayer of righteousness, castigation / sanguinary extension and covenant of celerity), but they dont apply enough pressure, and it has burst in the form of armor bypass and execute, but they are not as decisive as they seem since you need another forms of damage in order to create a cascade effect.

They are both oriented to single target damage but they lack tools to become a threat on their own, instead they are not bad "support" dps but that should not be the role of any competent dps spec. As for the argument "but it can still heal", as i said, remove the healing while on dps spec, and increase the flat damage, that would be the first step in the right direction.

WOW. Dude these classes are MELEE HEALERS, removing their MAIN MELEE HEAL REND SOUL/DA is just... well you dont play the class or this is a troll=) If you are not, shield should be removed and shield skills reworked with DW/2h. Purpose of melee dok/wp even in full dmg spec is still to heal some. Give both back the AP based grp heal, but let it only heal for the dmg it deals. Off topic ; pls can we get back to aoe cap 9 instead of 24?
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

sergteo
Posts: 33

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#14 » Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:37 pm

Sinisterror wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:21 pm
sergteo wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:18 pm
One of the easiest ways to make DPS DOK/WP a competent dps would be to remove it's healing capabilities of their channelings (Rend Soul for DOK, Divine Assault for WP) and instead add a flat damage increase so it becomes a channeling damaging melee skill much like Slayer's Retribution or WE's Ruthless Assault. Also for dps dok to have some sort of AP regain, maybe changing Horrifying Offering tactic so Consume Strenght gives you AP instead of making the enemy lose it. Warrior Priest has an excelent AP regen in the form of m2 Divine Replenishment, wich becomes even better when you have to do the job of frontline bruiser and need to apply pressure systematically.

I agree both shield wp and dok (specially dok) are pretty overtuned right now, but i think it's a well known fact already.

Having both fully geared dps WP and dps DOK and playing them on a constant basis i see that the main problem is that the class doesn't have a definitive role when it comes to it's damage:

It can do aoe damage, but it's pretty weak, it has sustained dps in the form of a few dots (guilty soul, prayer of righteousness, castigation / sanguinary extension and covenant of celerity), but they dont apply enough pressure, and it has burst in the form of armor bypass and execute, but they are not as decisive as they seem since you need another forms of damage in order to create a cascade effect.

They are both oriented to single target damage but they lack tools to become a threat on their own, instead they are not bad "support" dps but that should not be the role of any competent dps spec. As for the argument "but it can still heal", as i said, remove the healing while on dps spec, and increase the flat damage, that would be the first step in the right direction.

WOW. Dude these classes are MELEE HEALERS, removing their MAIN MELEE HEAL REND SOUL/DA is just... well you dont play the class or this is a troll=) If you are not, shield should be removed and shield skills reworked with DW/2h. Purpose of melee dok/wp even in full dmg spec is still to heal some. Give both back the AP based grp heal, but let it only heal for the dmg it deals. Off topic ; pls can we get back to aoe cap 9 instead of 24?
read please
remove the healing -

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anarchypark
Posts: 1945

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#15 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:50 am

i have shield wp and dw dok. both end gears.
they have completely different role.
Shield is heal. fulfill healer spot in 2-2-2 comp.
excellent in melee train, bad in kite, cc.
unreliable but player and team makes it work.

dps spec has 2 version. solo and grp.
one with shield tree top tactic. solo dps with channel lifetap.
like regen or riposte build, it's for solo.

i guess topic is full dps.
like shield, it has pros and cons. unreliable but works by player and team.
rend soul is not useful in this build. that's big difference.
armor ignore from behind is far better.
it's mix of aoe and ST. constant Fell Sacrifice and Lash helps ur top dmg chart. if that's what u want.
adding aoe pressure from Devour Essence is what WP don't have. it's also panic button.
GCD free HD and snare. 4sec silence and dispell.
it lacks raw damage slightly but have utility to kill healer.
like any other mdps, it needs guard/support.

no matter what you claim, it's healer based class, hybrid.
can't ask glass cannon dps output. i would rather learn utility arsenal.
SM8, SW8, AM8, WL7, KoBS5, BW5, WP8, WH7, IB7, Eng5, RP5, SL6
BG7, Sorc6, DoK8, WE7, Chs8, Mg7, Ze6, Mara7, BO5, SH7, Shm5, Chop4
SC summary - https://www.returnofreckoning.com/forum ... =8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

pvprangergod
Posts: 144

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#16 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:13 am

Sinisterror wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am
pvprangergod wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:35 am
shield has already been nerfed to the point its a totally useless spec just like "dps" spec
https://imgur.com/a/mWKYPrg

How do you mean shield has been nerfed to totally useless ? I know that Screenshot's from target dummy dont mean much but it still is 3300 AOE heals from divine strike. In real fight 2300 AOE heal is closer to truth, while healing party for 1000+ easily with AP using melee heal and AP based melee heals dont exist on DPS dok/wp anymore. I mean even Judgement/FoK now uses rf/se which is just totally upside down. These skills have always been the way for dps dok/wp to HAVE A SMALL CHANCE TO SURVIVE WHEN AGAINST KITER by spamming judgement/FoK and gaining 15 rf/se per hit so can use hot, and with luck you get enemy snared with Celerity and extra luck Run Away procs. There is a reason why FoK/Judgement used AP and did okay dmg for "throw dagger" like skill, to have a chance against kiters.

Now all that is impossible when it uses rf/se instead of ap... Can you tell me how Shield has been nerfed to useless?

EDIT; Also DPSDOK has good enough dmg for ranked, problem is that melee healing is impossible now with DW/2h specs. Which was the original point of the classess... MELEE HEAL. Books/Chalices didnt have any rf/se gains for first year of Warhammer or so. After that was introduced it didnt took long time that people realized that OH DAYMN Book/Chalice WP/DOK is now super good in BACKLINE healing which the class never supposed to be.

Shields for dok/wp should be removed because 30-40 block with insane high aoe melee heals and super nice party melee heals. Just rework new shield skills to work with DW/2h and adjust them as needed.
go play shield/dps wp/dok at a high level against competent enemies then you will realise its garbage compared to chalice/book. and chalice/book is arguably weaker than runie/zeal/am/sham too.

pvprangergod
Posts: 144

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#17 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:17 am

overall, can ppl who have zero clue how to play the game stop arguing like they actually know anything. hearing **** like my dps dok is OP when it literally does less damage than every single actual dps class by miles is just sad. and its even more sad to realise that the ROR team takes those people seriously and even has some of them decide how to balance the game. so be humble and just stop spreading bullshit spam because you died 1v1 vs a BIS geared dps dok who knows what they are doing against your shitty under geared, poorly spec'ed toon that you have zero clue how to play.

for some factual info, i can make my annihilator rr40 witchelf do more damage than my rr80+ bis geared dps dok.

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Sinisterror
Posts: 422

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#18 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:56 am

pvprangergod wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 7:13 am
Sinisterror wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 10:54 am
pvprangergod wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 9:35 am
shield has already been nerfed to the point its a totally useless spec just like "dps" spec
https://imgur.com/a/mWKYPrg

How do you mean shield has been nerfed to totally useless ? I know that Screenshot's from target dummy dont mean much but it still is 3300 AOE heals from divine strike. In real fight 2300 AOE heal is closer to truth, while healing party for 1000+ easily with AP using melee heal and AP based melee heals dont exist on DPS dok/wp anymore. I mean even Judgement/FoK now uses rf/se which is just totally upside down. These skills have always been the way for dps dok/wp to HAVE A SMALL CHANCE TO SURVIVE WHEN AGAINST KITER by spamming judgement/FoK and gaining 15 rf/se per hit so can use hot, and with luck you get enemy snared with Celerity and extra luck Run Away procs. There is a reason why FoK/Judgement used AP and did okay dmg for "throw dagger" like skill, to have a chance against kiters.

Now all that is impossible when it uses rf/se instead of ap... Can you tell me how Shield has been nerfed to useless?

EDIT; Also DPSDOK has good enough dmg for ranked, problem is that melee healing is impossible now with DW/2h specs. Which was the original point of the classess... MELEE HEAL. Books/Chalices didnt have any rf/se gains for first year of Warhammer or so. After that was introduced it didnt took long time that people realized that OH DAYMN Book/Chalice WP/DOK is now super good in BACKLINE healing which the class never supposed to be.

Shields for dok/wp should be removed because 30-40 block with insane high aoe melee heals and super nice party melee heals. Just rework new shield skills to work with DW/2h and adjust them as needed.
go play shield/dps wp/dok at a high level against competent enemies then you will realise its garbage compared to chalice/book. and chalice/book is arguably weaker than runie/zeal/am/sham too.
You didnt say any reasons how shield dok have been nerfed to useless. Ive been playing both dps wp and dps dok since 2008 first day when AOR came out. I can kill you in game with my rr 64 dok against your bis geared dok if you want=) I can probably do it with my rank 39 wp.
"To clarify, me asking to developers to go test their own changes is not sign of toxicity or anger, but a sign of hope that the people punching in the numbers remain aware of potential consequences and test their own changes"-Teefz

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Xirucio
Posts: 92

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#19 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:19 am

I'm not exactly a veteran of this game as i only started to play it last year but, i accept the fact that my Dps Warrior Priest is a hybrid spec/class and in no way it should deal damage in the range of pure Dps classes.

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MedV
Posts: 235

Re: DPS vs Shield DOK...DW In a Sad State.

Post#20 » Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:35 am

Xirucio wrote:
Sat Jan 15, 2022 8:19 am
I'm not exactly a veteran of this game as i only started to play it last year but, i accept the fact that my Dps Warrior Priest is a hybrid spec/class and in no way it should deal damage in the range of pure Dps classes.
Shammy/AM are hybrids that can make a run with the pure DPS Classes. Same with some Tanks.

Thing is as a DPS DOK you sacrifice most of your healing power for dmg. Some problems though are youre the only MDPS without a charge ability (Not flee), you do less dmg and you dont have an aoe detaunt (you cant sacrifice the other 4 tactics without ruining the entire spec).

Someone should help come up with some actual viable small buffs/tweaks that would make the DW DOK actually viable again- Im not asking to top Dmg charts.

DOK somehow went from most wanted healer and a viable DPS to least wanted healer and not viable DPS. I dont know what happened, truly. I think the other heals got buffed which left chalice behind? And DPS im also not really sure what changed. Id like to have a discussion on what changes were made in game that put the DOK in the state it is with actual facts and not turn this into a "my low lvl WP can kill you 1v1".
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