Some reflections on melee SW

[Scrilian]

Spoiler:

Somehow I can't stop my off-topic RP, esp. towards elves, for the last few day

Looking at the latest Az. posts, melee SW would be made viable in the long run, hope to see his thoughts on the matter.

[Tklees]

Well the assualt sw isn't really effective till about rr 60 - so keep that in mind; you need as many points as possible to get EW and SA in Assault Tree and enough points for SS and KA in Skirmisher to really be effective. The Assualt SW is also balanced around more of 1v1's out in ORvR or putting out mediocre DPS form afar with healers and then taking down any MDPS who come to try to **** with your healers.

Assault spec isn't for anything other than the lol's. Skirm/scout does everything better - and at range.

1) Sweeping strikes is terrible and isn't worth trying to fix - SW have 4 AoE abilities (one of which is a tactic spec) and will never be AoE based.

It really is out of place. Skirm is really the AOE tree. Compare Sweeping strikes to barrage? Less damage, lower range. Wast of a cooldown.

2) Swift Strike's place is really only useful if you are ganking Sorcs/Healers in the back of SC's and while its a decent skill like Sweeping Strikes isn't really worth picking up and will needa complete rework to be totally useful.

It is useless, even with the bonus cast damage the damage is low. Pretty much better off spamming the grim slash. (Also, does this still break on movement?)

3) No Respite could use a little buff but what tactic are you gonna give up to use it? (Keen Arrowheads, Sinister Assault, Wrist Slash, Bullseye/Replenishing Strikes/Leading Shots (very rare to use honestly unless you are in a premade that really relies on it)). If anything it would buff Skirmisher for people who want to be as close as possible.

Leading shots is ranged crits only. Doesn't proc off of melee. (not asking for a change to this to be clear). No Respite should be a bigger buff but only apply to melee abilities. This was nerfed from (35%?) back with the big AOE nerf. If this is buffed back and works with ranged, SW AOE will be broken and I promise to abuse it.

4) In Live i know it worked with VoN on; so far i haven't seen it work as intended but there will be bugs. And if it bypasses all armor and crits does it really need more base damage? It would be nice but maybe too strong.

VoN worked to allow brutal assault from any position at launch but was changed when the VoN interactions were removed across the board. I think a better option for Brutal Assualt is to have it be a mirror of Sundering Chop with Sinister assault removing the cooldown. Sure, I would love to torment spam on my SW but that would be broken.

5) People talked about that a lot for Live but you already Dual Wield with the bow and sword stat wise (which is a lot more important than the extra weapon adds to other classes) so just remember to always get the Sword thats better for range, and it will translate to being greatfor melee without gimping your ranged dps. If they got greatswords they would have to completely recode a lot of items and that would be only a minor buff which imo isn't worth the time.

The lack of "white damage" on the assault SW is a serious problem. Assault stance should really mirror the offhand weapon (not for stats) and add the benefits of dual wield.

Honestly the only change Assault SW's need to be effective is to make Takedown not require a stance; this would give Assault SW's a nice gap closer that they need for T2/T3. I also think you're focusing too much on the "melee" aspect of Assault; the main strength is the burst damage, equal ranged/melee strength and the bonus survivability from the double armor.

This is a good insight to the problem with the spec. You have all the tools but the stance interation (with a 5 second cooldown) means that you are not really able to stick to a target in melee when you have to resnare. It kills your burst when you are specced melee and get locked into skirmish for 5 seconds.

This is all just my opinion but I mained an Assault SW on Live for about 1.5 years, and this was before all the SW buffs. I would honestly say Assault SW is the most skill intensive class to play just based on all the mechanics.

The SW buffs were really Scout/skirm buffs. before those changes Assault was about on par with the other trees. Those trees are great now. Assault was left behind as everything in assault you can do better in a ranged spec.

One other point, Exploit weakness, the 13 point ability, is a melee KD on a class (now) with a core ranged KD. WTF? Make it a finisher like Cull the weak.

./thread Thorondir hath spoken.

[Deadpoet]

Yep. Really comprehensive summary of the melee SW issues. Thanks all for contributing. I know the devs are really busy on many open fronts, but maybe they will take note and do somethig about this in the future.

[Manatikik]

Spoiler:

Well the assualt sw isn't really effective till about rr 60 - so keep that in mind; you need as many points as possible to get EW and SA in Assault Tree and enough points for SS and KA in Skirmisher to really be effective. The Assualt SW is also balanced around more of 1v1's out in ORvR or putting out mediocre DPS form afar with healers and then taking down any MDPS who come to try to **** with your healers.

Assault spec isn't for anything other than the lol's. Skirm/scout does everything better - and at range.

1) Sweeping strikes is terrible and isn't worth trying to fix - SW have 4 AoE abilities (one of which is a tactic spec) and will never be AoE based.

It really is out of place. Skirm is really the AOE tree. Compare Sweeping strikes to barrage? Less damage, lower range. Wast of a cooldown.

2) Swift Strike's place is really only useful if you are ganking Sorcs/Healers in the back of SC's and while its a decent skill like Sweeping Strikes isn't really worth picking up and will needa complete rework to be totally useful.

It is useless, even with the bonus cast damage the damage is low. Pretty much better off spamming the grim slash. (Also, does this still break on movement?)

3) No Respite could use a little buff but what tactic are you gonna give up to use it? (Keen Arrowheads, Sinister Assault, Wrist Slash, Bullseye/Replenishing Strikes/Leading Shots (very rare to use honestly unless you are in a premade that really relies on it)). If anything it would buff Skirmisher for people who want to be as close as possible.

Leading shots is ranged crits only. Doesn't proc off of melee. (not asking for a change to this to be clear). No Respite should be a bigger buff but only apply to melee abilities. This was nerfed from (35%?) back with the big AOE nerf. If this is buffed back and works with ranged, SW AOE will be broken and I promise to abuse it.

4) In Live i know it worked with VoN on; so far i haven't seen it work as intended but there will be bugs. And if it bypasses all armor and crits does it really need more base damage? It would be nice but maybe too strong.

VoN worked to allow brutal assault from any position at launch but was changed when the VoN interactions were removed across the board. I think a better option for Brutal Assualt is to have it be a mirror of Sundering Chop with Sinister assault removing the cooldown. Sure, I would love to torment spam on my SW but that would be broken.

5) People talked about that a lot for Live but you already Dual Wield with the bow and sword stat wise (which is a lot more important than the extra weapon adds to other classes) so just remember to always get the Sword thats better for range, and it will translate to being greatfor melee without gimping your ranged dps. If they got greatswords they would have to completely recode a lot of items and that would be only a minor buff which imo isn't worth the time.

The lack of "white damage" on the assault SW is a serious problem. Assault stance should really mirror the offhand weapon (not for stats) and add the benefits of dual wield.

Honestly the only change Assault SW's need to be effective is to make Takedown not require a stance; this would give Assault SW's a nice gap closer that they need for T2/T3. I also think you're focusing too much on the "melee" aspect of Assault; the main strength is the burst damage, equal ranged/melee strength and the bonus survivability from the double armor.

This is a good insight to the problem with the spec. You have all the tools but the stance interation (with a 5 second cooldown) means that you are not really able to stick to a target in melee when you have to resnare. It kills your burst when you are specced melee and get locked into skirmish for 5 seconds.

This is all just my opinion but I mained an Assault SW on Live for about 1.5 years, and this was before all the SW buffs. I would honestly say Assault SW is the most skill intensive class to play just based on all the mechanics.

The SW buffs were really Scout/skirm buffs. before those changes Assault was about on par with the other trees. Those trees are great now. Assault was left behind as everything in assault you can do better in a ranged spec.

One other point, Exploit weakness, the 13 point ability, is a melee KD on a class (now) with a core ranged KD. WTF? Make it a finisher like Cull the weak.

I never used LS (Cause hoenstly what serious premade takes an assault sw in SC's?) so i didn't know it only proc's off of range attacks.

I honestly don't think with Assault you need to stance dance (except for takedown, but like I said if it is usable in all trees it's fine) due to SFA, EE, BHA, AA, and SS being usable in Assault; sure you don't get the extra 40(?) BS from Scout but at 4X RR you should be able to soft cap without it easily. I also think Assault SW will be more useful again due to the reverting of RvR where everything matters so smaller roam groups are gonna be stronger again. But again as i said Assault is for T1 (kind of, you can be effective but EE spam is still stupid strong) and once you get Invader gear and have extra spec points to play with.

In your opinion whats the strongest SW build atm? I know I used to either Festerbomb in low T4 or EE Spam with No Quarter, Bullseye, Replinishg Strikes, then LS usually. Thoughts on whats strong now with a 32 cap?

[Foxbeep]

I never used LS (Cause hoenstly what serious premade takes an assault sw in SC's?) so i didn't know it only proc's off of range attacks.

I honestly don't think with Assault you need to stance dance (except for takedown, but like I said if it is usable in all trees it's fine) due to SFA, EE, BHA, AA, and SS being usable in Assault; sure you don't get the extra 40(?) BS from Scout but at 4X RR you should be able to soft cap without it easily. I also think Assault SW will be more useful again due to the reverting of RvR where everything matters so smaller roam groups are gonna be stronger again. But again as i said Assault is for T1 (kind of, you can be effective but EE spam is still stupid strong) and once you get Invader gear and have extra spec points to play with.

In your opinion whats the strongest SW build atm? I know I used to either Festerbomb in low T4 or EE Spam with No Quarter, Bullseye, Replinishg Strikes, then LS usually. Thoughts on whats strong now with a 32 cap?

I think Skirmish is currently the most """""viable""""" spec for SW right now because armor values haven't gotten to the point where Spiral Fletched Arrow is worthless. I'm Skirmish specced on my SW and I feel I do very well, putting out the damage and mobility to justify my not-being-a-brightwizard, and as far as I can tell almost every 32 SW is skirmish specced, at least the vast majority of them. I know because I usually ask when I see a SW doing well in SCs/ORvR.

That being said I don't really like the current SW meta because there are really two viable specs, one full skirmish and one that goes up skirmish for SS and then hits up no quarter for scout. Right now there are almost no reasons for taking a SW into an SC group unless they have SS, since with the Festerfix they can no longer reliably nuke moderately hard targets without some seriously lucky crits.

I would rather play Assault SW, as I enjoy the pace of it (and on the contrary I believe stance dancing benefits assault greatly) but without access to SS or high level gear it's really not possible to execute its role effectively.

I'm one of the hopeless morons who wants to move SS back to a 5 point ability though, so go ahead and throw my opinion out the window! (""T2 imbalance"", ohmahgawd!)

[Luth]

5. Last but not least. There must be some really good reason for SWs and Herders to be the only classes with a full melee skill tree that don't have access to either dual wield or greatweapon, but I can't think of them. Please enlighten me.

Because they are a range DD with the option to play them as a melee/range hybrid. They are not a melee DD. A single tree doesn't change the archetype of the class.
For the same reason they don't have a snare immunity or charge.
The class is meant to be played utilising the stance switching mechanic depending on the situation.
Every SW who plays only in one stance just gimps himself; same with marauders.

[Deadpoet]

I readily agree with you on the cc particularities of each archetype. In this game there is a very strict differentiation between the archetypes in terms of crowd control features. And I think it's a good thing. No ranged dd has break root or charge. Tanks have juggernaut, etc. OK.

However, weapon set is an entirely different thing imho. Apparently the game hasnt been thought of originaly with such a clear cut design in terms of what kid of weapons the archetypes can wield. If we take a look around we see that there is more diversity across the archetypes:

some healers can use greatweapon or dual wield.
All tanks can choose between 1handed+shield and Greatweapon.

In the case of healers who choose the path of healing through damage done the use of these DD-type weapons is understandable.

What about tanks? Tank archetype is not dd. Why allow them to use Greatweapons, which in the current state of the game doesn't provide any defensive features (parry for guard?) that a 1 handed can't offer? Well one can argue that off tanks with better damage can assist the mdps and so on. OK.

But the fact remains that the type of weapon is not as rigid across archetypes as cc abilities, so I don't think we can equate cc and weapons as archetypes unmovable features.

Therefore, it strikes me as odd or even unfair that a tank, for example can be allowed to wield a Greatweapon while a Shadow Warrior, who IS a Damage dealer type, can't. Especially after seeing that image of a Squig Herder greatweapon in this thread. What were the designers thinking of creating such a “monster”?

There is another ungrounded assumption that I would like to dispell. Giving the asault tree some long deserved love won't make players restrict themselves to that stance. At least I dont' see why should I lose the benefits of the other stances. Stance-dancing has its disadvantages but also advantages, and no SW would be playing well their class if they didnt switch between stances.

Finally, SW is not a ranged dps with a melee tree. Precisely because of the stance-dancing that defines the class, this constant and fast switching from long to medium to close range to medium again that makes this class appealing to many people, I deny that Sws are ranged Dds, They are a hybrid. They are BOTH ranged and melee Dds. They can be played as PRIMARILY ranged or PRIMARILY melee. But they should be a mix of both. Not even engies or maguses, even though they can be tanky and deal damage from close range, have a tree that is entirely devoted to MELEE abilities. Sws and herders are very special Dds, conventionally classified as “rdps”.

One last reflection: A SW with a bow is a complete fighter, His left hand handles the bow, his right hand draws the arrow. Even visually it is a satisfying image to behold. A SW with a 1hander is such an incomplete, wrong picture, visually and logically. That stupid free left hand raised in the air is too grotesquely useless, even for a flimsy elf:) Heck, even salvation Wps have a bloody book to place in their free hand. The SW's empty left hand is a glaring injustice. You are a ranged dps, so you dont have the right to have decent autoattack damage nor 10% parry or 10% strikethrough.

That left empty, idle left hand could be a problem, A bored, frustated melee-oriented elf could feel the urge to do bad things with it, even to …..........touch himself :S

[Foxbeep]

...

That left empty, idle left hand could be a problem, A bored, frustated melee-oriented elf could feel the urge to do bad things with it, even to …..........touch himself :S

Or to facepalm, as the case may be!