Did they go on like this forever?

[Krima]

can someone list WLs abilities off GCD?

WLs op yes, armor debuff + pet hits it's just too much..doesn't make any sense light armors on 1k and WL armor debuff reducing 1400 armor... it was ok when people had lvl 100 gear. Do like me, roll a marauder.. soon or later ror will be only WLs vs Maras

[Danielle]

When balancing restarts one day you can go ahead and make your suggestion to balance the game around PuG play as it is 90% of the game (I very much doubt that assertion).

not saying that everyone is always pugging, but I very much doubt that the majority of playerbase is interested in doing regular "competitive" "6man" "boisbands" action with optimized setups.
There is a lot to WAR/RoR and rvr is so much more than just 6v6 fights.
Obviously I might have my own limited worldview, but I truly doubt that we have a lot of guilds left that do "competitive" 6mans.
And then again, this game is not really balance on just 6v6, nor 3v3, nor 12v12, nor 24v24... it's a bit chaotic, and it has elements of all different scales in it.

I think you are very much right with your description of what is happening atm, the question is what a game or even this game should be balanced around. Is it around what the vast majority of the playerbase experiences or around the top end possibilities of what happens in a game? You saw yourself how Csi/Simba couldn't blow up a 5.8k health zealot in an organized setting that didn't have guard and they are certainly amongst top WH's and WLs on this server, not to mention they also had an upgraded WP proc that they wouldn't have had with a 'standard' fotm healing setup.

[ToXoS]

The argument "WL is barely performing in 6v6" is pretty weak, considering maybe 5-10% of the playerbase does 6v6 fights and the fights are pretty damn rare. In the lakes its always random numbers, and even in Scs it consists of bunch of fights/ganks/raids/pushes/kites with the rare "main fight".

I've given up on dreaming about WL nerf, and decided to roll one. It seems pretty strong so far, easing bursting down people in T1, and as for Midtier, I expect to be able to better chop down a lot of people as soon as I get pounce. For a class that "barely manages in 6v6", it is really strong in smaller scale.
Best suggestion, roll one, go max dmg spec, get to T4 asap and enjoy the bursting of clothies and lowbies.

Besides, with the possibility of renown wipe coming closer, it's perfect time to level up a new WL.

I rolled a WL about 3 weeks ago. Now it is in T4, and you will see that from T1 to midtier, it's just the easiest DPS class to play. I can't say much in the case of T4 however.
You will also quickly realise how strong your pet is, when you will have access to Trained to hunt, and rotate between the different pet "stances" (training) for maximum dps by keeping all pets abilities on CD.
Also, when you will have access to pounce, your world will change

[sanii]

can someone list WLs abilities off GCD?

Brutal Pounce (the stun , does fairly little dmg)
Throat Bite ( the silence, also fairly little dmg)

Those 2 are the only ones i know off that are off gcd. Similarly to SH who have their disarm (which does little dmg aswell) off gcd.

You will also quickly realise how strong your pet is, when you will have access to Trained to hunt, and rotate between the different pet "stances" (training) for maximum dps by keeping all pets abilities on CD.

This is nonsense, the only time you can do this without losing dps, is when ur kiting and allowing your pet to be the only one doing the dmg and using its utility. Not only do you lose a gcd on stance swapping ( and thus don't use any of ur abilties) you also lose stance related benefits for that duration.And with high end gear ur abilities are significantly more relevant then ur pet's, especially considering crit % doesn't get transferred.

I will totally agree that WL is pretty disgusting (borderline toxic) vs anything that is lower geared or for roaming ,1v1 and smaller scale's.

[ToXoS]

can someone list WLs abilities off GCD?

Brutal Pounce (the stun , does fairly little dmg)
Throat Bite ( the silence, also fairly little dmg)

Those 2 are the only ones i know off that are off gcd. Similarly to SH who have their disarm (which does little dmg aswell) off gcd.

You will also quickly realise how strong your pet is, when you will have access to Trained to hunt, and rotate between the different pet "stances" (training) for maximum dps by keeping all pets abilities on CD.

This is nonsense, the only time you can do this without losing dps, is when ur kiting and allowing your pet to be the only one doing the dmg and using its utility. Not only do you lose a gcd on stance swapping ( and thus don't use any of ur abilties) you also lose stance related benefits for that duration.And with high end gear ur abilities are significantly more relevant then ur pet's, especially considering crit % doesn't get transferred.

I will totally agree that WL is pretty disgusting (borderline toxic) vs anything that is lower geared or for roaming ,1v1 and smaller scale's.

Hmmm yes, that's why I said "how strong your pet is" and not the WL him/herself. I should have make it clear. My bad.

[Amidala]

I am lvl up marauder and wl.How u can say that wl is the most easier class when in destro side they have marauder??i have seen 2 times Wl nerfed,but pls don't touch mara,we don't wanna see destro tears =(

[Aurandilaz]

I think you are very much right with your description of what is happening atm, the question is what a game or even this game should be balanced around. Is it around what the vast majority of the playerbase experiences or around the top end possibilities of what happens in a game? You saw yourself how Csi/Simba couldn't blow up a 5.8k health zealot in an organized setting that didn't have guard and they are certainly amongst top WH's and WLs on this server, not to mention they also had an upgraded WP proc that they wouldn't have had with a 'standard' fotm healing setup.

Then again the balance should not be considered around "top tier" "much skillz" "very coordinated" gameplay of the few 3-5 last 6mans left in the game. Well, at least in my opinion.
Good healers will be always hard to kill, which does not mean the class trying to kill the healer is somehow underperforming, despite being played by a "good" player.

What I consider somewhat flawed thinking is the idea that the gameplay should be balanced around the actions of the "best" players, when if you think about it, when ranking players in some mythical way, a lot of them would have to be below average so that some of them could be above average.
Maybe I'll try with some example; a "pro" PVE team might feel challenged by some boss, do it a few hours and win after several attempts; good for them. But a casual team of average players might try a few times, decide that its impossible and quit the game.
Now somehow try to insert similar approach to the often confusing "RVR balance"; should it balanced in a way that the few remaining 6man teams can get their weekly 1-2 hours of "challenging" combat against other organized teams looking for challenge, or maybe the balance should include the fact that a lot of players are just average players with average motivation to log in and play, have 3-5 hours a playtime per week and are not really interested in "challenging" 6man action.
Now in an ideal game maybe we would only have 6man guilds and everyone would always play with same people in their ranked series and so on, but RoR is just as chaotic as WAR was, which means it's not just about the "6man"-experience. No, a lot of us just want to enjoy occasional organized fighting and are happy with doing a lot of pugging from time to time.

Should the state of "balance" show an imaginary middlefinger to the average PUG player and tell them straight "make a 6man or get wreckt son", or maybe some middleground could be found, and a balance achieved where the casual average players also might enjoy the game without being constantly farmed by teams that are balanced for 6v6 action.

tldr, nerf this buff that and git gud, why wont anyone think of the pugs?

[ToXoS]

I am lvl up marauder and wl.How u can say that wl is the most easier class when in destro side they have marauder??i have seen 2 times Wl nerfed,but pls don't touch mara,we don't wanna see destro tears =(

Personally I'm struggling to play with my mara. To me, this is way harder than WL. I even wrote a thread about it with some questions, but I didn't receive clear answers yet
But I'm beginning to think that maybe I'm the one complicating the class more than I should...

But yeah, WL is easy mode. You have your cookie cutter rotation, your pet to help you, amazing mobility, burst, and medium armor.

[peterthepan3]

ultimately it is apparent that the class performs exceedingly well in any unorganised situation, yet doesn't in an organised setting. in my opinion, the latter is what ought to count (not necessarily elite boyband 6v6, but group play in general). If anything should serve as an incentive to form groups (as per the game's intent), it is the WL

Similarly one could argue that a DPS AM is easy mode when roaming in the lakes, but it rarely gets a look in in an organised environment. Not to sound arrogant/condescending, but it is worth factoring in that bad players will always be killed easily - regardless of class/spec. The same uproar came about as a direct result of the engineer/magus buffs, yet noone could find an instance where said classes were overperforming in a group environment. Vast majority of these complaints stem from pug/unorganised encounters, and this is a group-based game...you do the math.

[sanii]

Should the state of "balance" show an imaginary middlefinger to the average PUG player and tell them straight "make a 6man or get wreckt son", or maybe some middleground could be found, and a balance achieved where the casual average players also might enjoy the game without being constantly farmed by teams that are balanced for 6v6 action.

tldr, nerf this buff that and git gud, why wont anyone think of the pugs?

Game is supposed to be balanced around you using the group mechanic's that were implemented by the main dev's ( so that's a yes to your 'make a 6man or get wreckt statement), you can't properly utilize stuff like guard,challenge,healing , morale dump's, group synergy effects ( and there is loads of these) in pug's , so unless you entirely redesign the game , you will NEVER be able to balance around pugging as there is just so many factor's. Which is why balancing around anything less then a group is pointless.( And you can look at 3 balancing state's/factors , which is group , scenario,warband if you want some kind of a reference)

Now i will give you , WL is pretty busted for killing non-healer puggies or for 1v1, but trying to go from nerf WL into balance for puggies is just wrong.