DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[lilsabin]

I wont write into my super long rant about this, but the bottom line of this is Guard.

Guard is basically what WAR/ROR combat is built upon and IMO is an archaic mechanic created back with Vanilla WoW and 6 hour "Raids" were what MMOs were all about.

It was a genius thing back then, but now, we have learned about what players actually want out of games much more over the last 10 years.

That, and the "audience" of players who played MMOs 10+ years ago, are all 10+ years older now, with wives and kids.

There is a reason WOW doesnt do 6 hour raids anymore.

Guard is a mechanic built for a "Hardcore PVP Only" game. Where as most players today, are looking for both - casual and hardcore options.

The problem with Guard is that its not a "fun" ability to use. The responsibility of "Guard" falles solely on the Tank himself, when in fact it should be a SHARED responsibility.

Ill put it another way. If I log into my Mara, I have no way of "obtaining" protection from a tank. I am completely at the mercy of THAT tank, selecting me, guarding me, and then staying close to me.

Guard works GREAT in premade groups. In "theory" all the "pro tanks" in premades swap guard 24/7 correct? So in this "theory" everyone in that group always has guard (unless punted).

So why not make this the way guard works???? It would work "the same" in premade groups - Guard affects all party members (which is right now done via swapping guard) but rather than do that, make Guard an "Aura" so now that MDPS can merely choose to run NEXT to the tank and WHAM! He has Guard.

Now its not solely on the Tank to guard, but also on people that want guard - stay by your tank!

Now, if we JUST did this... the tanks would never activate Guard... cause they would get NUKED in 2 seconds with 4 party members standing next to them...

So what you then have to do is modify Guard a little... I have ideas for this as well..


Anyways, you can look to "newer" games that have designed "roles" for PVP - such as Overwatch. It has "tanks" and "healers" and "damage dealers" in a similar fashion. How do the tanks work? They have FUN damage mitigation abilities.... Youll never see a tanks job in those games to cast an ability and follow that person around....

Point being... Guard is outdated but its also at the "core" of ROR... I personally think its ONE of the reasons WAR died. People dont always want to "try hard" by making a premade group. By finding healers and tanks and what not. Sometimes people just want to play and have fun....

But tanks having to really "try hard" to guard (im not saying it IS hard, I am saying it requires effort and focusing on guard to use correctly which isnt fun) is not always appealing. So what do tanks do? they grab a 2H,stack str, and forgo guard to whack stuff..... Which leads to MDPS classes melting on the front lines, which leads to more MDPS rolling 2H "DPS" Tanks, which leads to nobody killing anything because tanks are low damage, which leads to healers getting sick of healing tanks who dont kill ****, which leads to healers going DPS. OR, youll see RDPS who dont get heals who then roll healers to instead DPS so they get to heal themselves.


You would see WAY less "hybrid" rolls if you adjusted Guard to be more "fun" less of a "focus" for tanks and some of that emphasis placed on party members to make THEM stay near tanks, not tanks stay near guarded targets...

This would largely make premades the exact same (since premades just swap guard - something PUGs never do) and it would make PUG vs PUG games and Premade vs PUG games more fun.

I would sake real cash on this. You would see people playing ROR more, on classes they enjoy more, having a better time, population would grow, and less "hybrid" rolls all with 1 mechanic....

Thats my analysis after MAINING tanks, and trying both RDPS and MDPS classes out and my observation of countless countless SCs and trying to talk to tanks about why they are playing it wrong (and not guarding). Really what a "DPS" 2H tank WANTS to be is a MDPS... But he cant, because they are too squishy because they dont get guarded... So they roll tanks to be "tanky DPS" which is just where the fail snowball starts.

EDIT: Ooops.... I wrote my super long rant. Sorry

Dood , i couldnt agree more with you , nobody want to move on to newer stuff ... "nah , we want 6 man blahblahblah , and the game was made around 24 men blahblahblha..." there are way to change things without making it a single player game . Every class in this game feel so incomplete... i feel like we all depend on other classes to be good , wich is not good , cause as u stated before , nobody wanna spend 30 mins trying to find the exact good combination of teammates in chat , we are in 2017 , lets think new things ... but no , just watch them live in 2008 and come everyday arguing on the forum that people dont do their job , loooooooooool , as if they were paying me to play the F*** how i wanted to play

[Daknallbomb]

I still love to play my shammy As dps. As long ppl think i Do no dmg or they think my dmg is cleansable because they think i use dots for dmg. As long they ignore me like iam not there i can nearly do what ever i want last days i got so nice sc fights most of tham wins, we faught a premate where two ppl from Our grp was afk and we won 18 to kills i can Just speak for dps shammy that you can Rock with tham like hell. At the Moment i Test some setup Whats good Whats not that good. Best play i had with a 2/2/2 setup Zealot, dok, choosen, bg, mara, and me.
I tried to play with a magus But Cant Find a proper one to grp. Still want to test it ( eyes to Peter). I never won against a rly rly high proper premate But nit because iam a dps shammy Ot was because we where Simply not good enough for IT. I think its possibel As shammy to take a dps Part in a grp easy If you can play well. It will ever give a better setup yes But i dont wanna be the Best in the World i will try a setup like Zealot dok bo choosen mara me.
At least i have in every sc loose or win premate or pug nearly every time most dmg most dps or Same like other dps . They only Thing what shammy rly miss is pressure But that can be good too because the dmg comes very bursty and the Enemy never knows When IT comes.

[Drudge]

A shadow spec priest is a dps, i ran a warrior and i tanked in prot and i got top dps as fury. This however isnt wow lol.

A shammy can dps and heal, and his mecanic is built to do that. Thats why i dont much care for his experimental mode because it kind of locks you into different modes instead of being able to flip flop on the fly.

I do stay tanky on my 2H BO even though in a min max world its not the best choice. But its what i find fun and im trying to get my choppa game up even though ill probably just stack toughness and parry so whats the difference?

Guard is a great tool however the way it needs to be used to be top tier is too much. Try to manage ap, get good punts in, aim your challenge to minimize dmg, keep the snares up, silence the heals, time your taunts, stay near your guard and switch on the fly.... Not to mention lag from being an ocean away and it not switching when you tell it to anyway. Its a lot, way more than anyone else has going on and yet we seem to catch the most ****. I agree with a rework

[Daknallbomb]

A shadow spec priest is a dps, i ran a warrior and i tanked in prot and i got top dps as fury. This however isnt wow lol.

A shammy can dps and heal, and his mecanic is built to do that. Thats why i dont much care for his experimental mode because it kind of locks you into different modes instead of being able to flip flop on the fly.

I do stay tanky on my 2H BO even though in a min max world its not the best choice. But its what i find fun and im trying to get my choppa game up even though ill probably just stack toughness and parry so whats the difference?

Guard is a great tool however the way it needs to be used to be top tier is too much. Try to manage ap, get good punts in, aim your challenge to minimize dmg, keep the snares up, silence the heals, time your taunts, stay near your guard and switch on the fly.... Not to mention lag from being an ocean away and it not switching when you tell it to anyway. Its a lot, way more than anyone else has going on and yet we seem to catch the most ****. I agree with a rework

A shammy can dps and heal? We play diffrent classes? Pls explain me how execpt some sos heal with morale or one - 2 ill take that
. You have to hold youre gork points up and without Mork i heal 600 with a big 2 sec heal If target is HD its 300 for a 2 second cast. My Hot Ticks for 200. You dont have aoe life tap because you need da whaag is comming in Mid three for effektiv dmg. There is no way to heal As dps shammy proper.

[ZewKrwi]

"Guard works GREAT in premade groups . In " theory" all the " pro tanks " in premades swap guard 24/7 correct ? So in this "theory" everyone in that group always has guard ( unless punted ) .
So why not make this the way guard works ???? It would work " the same " in premade groups - Guard affects all party members ( which is right now done via swapping guard) but rather than do that , make Guard an " Aura " so now that MDPS can merely choose to run NEXT to the tank and WHAM ! He has Guard."

why not auto heal for healers?
why not auto dps?
why not auto follow and assist?

why you play tank if you don't want to...


if you have pvp it's imortant what target will take healer to heal and what skill he will use to do that. if you play dps is same and will you assist and swich target when others focus other enemy, for tank is will he change guard in time before some one die and that's all give use better and worst teams.
For me tank without guard is useless class for noobs so better delete it and we will have balanced game and no more not guarding tanks.
Why pug wb lose against 1/2 guild wb? Because dps healers and dps tanks and thats fair for me. Premades at sc can fight very long against each other without a single kill, and that means balance in game so every class show it's skill and what skill will show auto guarding tank, or auto healing healer? Why you play that old game if you don't like it mechanic, i play because I don't like this new mechanic in new mmorpg this days and love old system when skill was important, and we hade better and worts players in some classes.

[Aurandilaz]

Honestly Guard mechanic works just as fine as in the past. Nothing has changed in it over the years. Either the tank and the guarded player stick together, or they don't.

There is no "viscous cycle of rerolling because guarding sucks, then mdpsing sucks, then 2hloldpsing suck", no.... people switch according to mood. Most of the playerbase have a dozen alts in T4 condition already. No one is locked into one specific role, and the same players play both sides and all different combat positions.

As for what makes 6mans so effective... it's not just about guard changing.
It's about TRUST. The dps knows that the tanks will do their best to save them, and tanks know the dps will do their best to kill the enemies so the whole team gets renown and the healers know that the others will pull back if their backline is threatened, and they know the tanks will even guard them if needed. Building trust takes time, and it can result in perfect team synergy. That's the biggest difference between a proper 6man and random PUG parties. The other is a unit that has taken months of training to perform flawlessly, trusting one another, and the PUG is just some people who have ended up at the same place and time together. Heck, a good boisband will play effectively even if both tanks are loldps mode, and if their healers are doing damage and healing both.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

"Guard works GREAT in premade groups . In " theory" all the " pro tanks " in premades swap guard 24/7 correct ? So in this "theory" everyone in that group always has guard ( unless punted ) .
So why not make this the way guard works ???? It would work " the same " in premade groups - Guard affects all party members ( which is right now done via swapping guard) but rather than do that , make Guard an " Aura " so now that MDPS can merely choose to run NEXT to the tank and WHAM ! He has Guard."

why not auto heal for healers?
why not auto dps?
why not auto follow and assist?

why you play tank if you don't want to...


if you have pvp it's imortant what target will take healer to heal and what skill he will use to do that. if you play dps is same and will you assist and swich target when others focus other enemy, for tank is will he change guard in time before some one die and that's all give use better and worst teams.
For me tank without guard is useless class for noobs so better delete it and we will have balanced game and no more not guarding tanks.
Why pug wb lose against 1/2 guild wb? Because dps healers and dps tanks and thats fair for me. Premades at sc can fight very long against each other without a single kill, and that means balance in game so every class show it's skill and what skill will show auto guarding tank, or auto healing healer? Why you play that old game if you don't like it mechanic, i play because I don't like this new mechanic in new mmorpg this days and love old system when skill was important, and we hade better and worts players in some classes.

amen brother.


and I personally find switching guards or denying a kill by doing so great. I enjoy the mechanic.

[Stkillinger]

There is a certain level of frustration associated with this. Let's say I play a dps rune priest, I join a scenario and there are two tanks, me, an archmage and the rest is all dps. Looks like my team could use another healer and I am literally the only person who can fill that role, but I don't because I want to dps. People will blame me if it's a loss.

Now let's say you have someone who only wants to dps. You flame them for playing dps healer and they decide to go play a dps class. They have a better chance of doing more damage as a dps class, but you still retain the original problem of lacking a healer.

So weather or not they switch to a dps class, you are still left with the same outcome, no healer or lacking a sufficient amount of healers.

People recognize that healing classes are mostly suited towards healing and will get angry if they don't get healed. Seeing one of the only classes capable of keeping your team alive deciding to dps instead is frustrating, but I have to ask why is this so specific to warhammer? In swg you could play a combat medic and nobody would complain. In wow you can play a shadow priest instead of healing and nobody is going to flame you. They will say "gee, wish we had more healers".

One reason is that there are so many classes capable of healing in wow that it is hard to flame 1/2 of your team. In swg the classes all had their own ways of self sustain that they wouldnt think about needing a medic as mandatory in a random pug.

[K13R]

I think a lot of issue with the game as it is way that the direction changed and the players changed it. I dont believe warhammer was ever supposed to be balanced around the 6v6 meta that most people pigeon hole it into. I played that meta durning live and it was most certainly a thing from ol daoc players. I believe warhammer was supposed to be warband balanced so if you had a couple hybrid melee sw/sh, dps heals, dps tanks etc the pain of such was less as there was plenty of players. I remember that the rvr lakes werent a thing in early beta it was a /sc only so 2 sided rvr was a non issue the lakes came much later and only after a small revolt.


So this game is caught between worlds us it small scale or large scale balance changes depending on the size of the forces fighting.


Of course after the cities (2 tanks delayed) cut it became a hodge podge and it was even harder to balance as the racial balance was lost

The hybrid classes lost there way and are there as a challenge to advanced players to make work.

[lilsabin]

"Guard works GREAT in premade groups . In " theory" all the " pro tanks " in premades swap guard 24/7 correct ? So in this "theory" everyone in that group always has guard ( unless punted ) .
So why not make this the way guard works ???? It would work " the same " in premade groups - Guard affects all party members ( which is right now done via swapping guard) but rather than do that , make Guard an " Aura " so now that MDPS can merely choose to run NEXT to the tank and WHAM ! He has Guard."

why not auto heal for healers?
why not auto dps?
why not auto follow and assist?

why you play tank if you don't want to...


if you have pvp it's imortant what target will take healer to heal and what skill he will use to do that. if you play dps is same and will you assist and swich target when others focus other enemy, for tank is will he change guard in time before some one die and that's all give use better and worst teams.
For me tank without guard is useless class for noobs so better delete it and we will have balanced game and no more not guarding tanks.
Why pug wb lose against 1/2 guild wb? Because dps healers and dps tanks and thats fair for me. Premades at sc can fight very long against each other without a single kill, and that means balance in game so every class show it's skill and what skill will show auto guarding tank, or auto healing healer? Why you play that old game if you don't like it mechanic, i play because I don't like this new mechanic in new mmorpg this days and love old system when skill was important, and we hade better and worts players in some classes.

DOOD , SAY WTVR YOU WANNA SAY , but people wont do that , THATS WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR A LONG TIME. And they dont care about u calling them noobs , looool... u think i care about the fact that an european (for exemple) fellow is flaming the /sc chat because i decided to go 2 hand with my WP and just dps , loooool ... keep living in the past