DPS spec tank/healer Hypocrisy

[lilsabin]

p.s. e are slowly deriving from main post , get ready to have this closed soon , loooooooooool

[Kali14]

If we talking about hypocrisy I can tell you what this is. Hypocrisy was when I played AM healer in first line and behind me was 10 order RDPS and each of them wanted heals but nobody care to help me, usually because they are angry X-realmers :)This was hypocrisy when I lost 1000 gold for respecialize from healer on dps and again on healer etc...And finally I got 3 bans because I said something wrong and im cloose to be perma banned from this game... No point playing without healer, is there a point to be healer? I don't think so. The best idea is just play an RDPS. Ok but this is puglife...

[catholicism198]

I wish I could play a solo DPS Black Guard....but it's just not viable.

No point in guarding if all your healers are DPS. You'll just die that much quicker.

[th3gatekeeper]

Honestly Guard mechanic works just as fine as in the past. Nothing has changed in it over the years. Either the tank and the guarded player stick together, or they don't.

There is no "viscous cycle of rerolling because guarding sucks, then mdpsing sucks, then 2hloldpsing suck", no.... people switch according to mood. Most of the playerbase have a dozen alts in T4 condition already. No one is locked into one specific role, and the same players play both sides and all different combat positions.

As for what makes 6mans so effective... it's not just about guard changing.
It's about TRUST. The dps knows that the tanks will do their best to save them, and tanks know the dps will do their best to kill the enemies so the whole team gets renown and the healers know that the others will pull back if their backline is threatened, and they know the tanks will even guard them if needed. Building trust takes time, and it can result in perfect team synergy. That's the biggest difference between a proper 6man and random PUG parties. The other is a unit that has taken months of training to perform flawlessly, trusting one another, and the PUG is just some people who have ended up at the same place and time together. Heck, a good boisband will play effectively even if both tanks are loldps mode, and if their healers are doing damage and healing both.

Its like you didnt read my post man... I never said the mechanic "didnt work" I said that it isnt how players want to play MMOs and we have learned this over the past decade... Or atleast most of us have learned....

This ALL goes back to my initial question (maybe I didnt ask in this thread) but "what is the target audience of this game?"

This is key to identify. If the audience is "Live WAR players - to re-live Live days" then kudos. We have done it, and one could argue it better or worse than LIVE.

If, on the other hand, we want ROR to be BETTER than WAR, and we want ROR to excel and have bigger population (one of the big problems IMO) then we should re-evaluate WHY people leave... I can tell you a MAJOR MAJOR reason. It isnt "lack of gear" its because (in the words of a good friend who recently rage-uninstalled) "This game SUCKS for solo play". Why? Because he was a MDPS, in NA times who didnt want to feel like the only times he could play ROR were when his guild was on, or if his friend were on and to coordinate play times.

Right now, some of the "core" mechanics of the game (like Guard) basically REQUIRE players to play in groups. Mdps NEED tanks who NEED healers and normally I say "this isnt a problem" however something like Guard - you cant control.

Look, I will put it in the words of Crowfall DEVs who did an in depth study on what players want. It all boils down to TWO types of gameplay:

- soft touch
- hard touch

Hard touch is your typical "Raid" idea. It basically requires other players, requires "scheduled play times".

Soft touch systems are games that basically DONT require you to play with other people.

Right now, ROR is like 90% Hard Touch. The only real "soft touch" system would be like solo grinding pots or something... I dont consider "solo-Q" a "soft touch" when the mechanics of the base game - like Guard - basically REQUIRE a tank/dps heals.

This is why people roll Melee Doks or DPS healers or DPS 2h Tanks - these "hybrid" rolls - becuse they are the least "DEPENDENT" as you can get in the game. A DPS Healer (like Shaman or AM) can be a back line RPDS and sustain themself at the same time.

Melee DOk - DPS + Self heals. Etc.

They get to do "2 of the 3" jobs.


Also, my argument is thus:
- in premade groups, guard is swapped to create a positive "QOL" for all players.
- in PUGs and solo play, guard isnt even used to create a VERY negative "QOL" fpr most players.
- if Guard mechanic were changed so it didnt require "swapping" it wouldnt affect premade groups (who, with 2 tanks always have guard on whoever is getting hit).
- if guard mechanic were changed so it didnt require swapping, it WOULD affect solo Qers or PUG groups, creating a much better QOL for everyone.


Premades didnt "lose" anything. The game would play EXACTLY the same: The "Anti-guard" is Punt.
PUG groups, now have a much much better mechanic for ALL players to avoid damage - stick by your tank.

The only people I have met, who disagree with this are people who are in large guilds (EU players) who never have a shortage of people/friend to play with. But what this basically is, is creating a "cool kids only" social group, and what you have seen constantly are people on the "fringe" of these social groups (guilds) quit the game because its not fun to log in at 8pm or 9pm PST (NA time) and have nobody be online. People want to get on, play with friends, and have FUN. Not feel they need to "try hard" 24/7 by finding a 2-2-2 group etc etc.

Sadly, as someone said on the previus page, I doubt the DEVs are open to discussing or changing such a "core" mechanic. However the evidence is clearly there. How often do people rage about DPS tanks or healers? How often do we see threads "DPS Chosen Build" etc pop up.

Plain and Simple: Making Guard an aura that didnt require "swapping" would NOT decrease or impact the "highest level play" but it WOULD impact the "lowest level play" in that it would make ROR a much better experience for everyone. Especially if it provided some "selfish" benefits to compensate for taking increased damage (like giving the tank 10% greater chance to defend from all attacks as one example). The only other thing you would need to adjust are "reflects" to add an ICD to prevent from reflect builds being the new "META".

Now, who WOULD be affected by this change? The "Mid Level" Premade groups that already struggle with PUGs or who WANT an easy PUG win against PUGs. But what I think the focus should be are the highest level play and the "worst experience" players get in this game (which happens FAR too often).

This really is a black and white thing. This would be a far better way of doing Guard, HOWEVER if the goal isnt "making the best game" but rather "a niche game for old WAR players" then it doesnt matter what is "better" it only matters "what LIVE was like".

[Dabbart]

I wish I could play a solo DPS Black Guard....but it's just not viable.

No point in guarding if all your healers are DPS. You'll just die that much quicker.

No point in healing an Unguarded Mdps that is gonna get spiked faster than I can heal. Almost better to just assist that Mdps and dps tank for at least 1 DB...

[wargrimnir]

This really is a black and white thing. This would be a far better way of doing Guard, HOWEVER if the goal isnt "making the best game" but rather "a niche game for old WAR players" then it doesnt matter what is "better" it only matters "what LIVE was like".

Phase 1
Solo, learn to play. Feed, die, repeat. Get farmed. Pug baddie.

Phase 2
Git gud, learn. Target, position, react. Rage at baddies being bad.

Phase 3
Group up. Make friends. Have a reason to play. Still get stomped in Pre's, but farm baddies.

Phase 4
Get serious. Guild Pre's with comp strategy. Gear farming for optimal builds. Be elite. Top of Food Chain.


We're not looking to make this game any more casual and easy than it already is. I'm not sure where you got the idea. If anything, we're targeting issues with classes that make them skill-less. BO and SM are difficult classes. Fun, challenging, and rewarding when you can get it right. Chosen and Kobs are pretty meh classes, because auras make up 80% of their usefulness. We plan on getting rid of those auras too, and making them more targeted.

Guard is not complicated to understand, or difficult to use. It's supposed to be a bit clunky to swap Guard because it makes a huge difference to the players you're protecting. It takes practice to get used to, and it's rewarding when you do it well.

The issues you're having with DPS tanks is separate from guard, that's just bad players doing what they do.

[footpatrol2]

Chosen and kobs are not meh classes especially if you bring a two chosen's or two knights in your group. The aura mechanic's gets pretty complicated when you can afford to start switching aura's to your situation and communicating with your other tank.

But if your trying to force in a chosen or knight as THEE only aura tank in your group then ya the class is meh.

[lilsabin]

This really is a black and white thing. This would be a far better way of doing Guard, HOWEVER if the goal isnt "making the best game" but rather "a niche game for old WAR players" then it doesnt matter what is "better" it only matters "what LIVE was like".

Phase 1
Solo, learn to play. Feed, die, repeat. Get farmed. Pug baddie.

Phase 2
Git gud, learn. Target, position, react. Rage at baddies being bad.

Phase 3
Group up. Make friends. Have a reason to play. Still get stomped in Pre's, but farm baddies.

Phase 4
Get serious. Guild Pre's with comp strategy. Gear farming for optimal builds. Be elite. Top of Food Chain.


We're not looking to make this game any more casual and easy than it already is. I'm not sure where you got the idea. If anything, we're targeting issues with classes that make them skill-less. BO and SM are difficult classes. Fun, challenging, and rewarding when you can get it right. Chosen and Kobs are pretty meh classes, because auras make up 80% of their usefulness. We plan on getting rid of those auras too, and making them more targeted.

Guard is not complicated to understand, or difficult to use. It's supposed to be a bit clunky to swap Guard because it makes a huge difference to the players you're protecting. It takes practice to get used to, and it's rewarding when you do it well.

The issues you're having with DPS tanks is separate from guard, that's just bad players doing what they do.

lol , so , u are implying that all those poeple runing BO , SM , CHOSEN , KOTBS etc. whit 2 hands ( focusing dps) are bad players because they decide to go a route that is different from what their "ARCHETYPE" mean ?....lol , and that is something coming from one of the game devs. ( some of you people need to take some management course to know how to deal with situations) . REMOVE THE OPTION TO GO DPS OR 2 HANDS THEN AS A TANK OR HEALER... there problem solved , just give them tanks guard and cc skills , and those healers healing abilities . After all , you are doing this project for your personnal achievement right ?

[lilsabin]

just close this post allready ,lol

[lilsabin]

Honestly Guard mechanic works just as fine as in the past. Nothing has changed in it over the years. Either the tank and the guarded player stick together, or they don't.

There is no "viscous cycle of rerolling because guarding sucks, then mdpsing sucks, then 2hloldpsing suck", no.... people switch according to mood. Most of the playerbase have a dozen alts in T4 condition already. No one is locked into one specific role, and the same players play both sides and all different combat positions.

As for what makes 6mans so effective... it's not just about guard changing.
It's about TRUST. The dps knows that the tanks will do their best to save them, and tanks know the dps will do their best to kill the enemies so the whole team gets renown and the healers know that the others will pull back if their backline is threatened, and they know the tanks will even guard them if needed. Building trust takes time, and it can result in perfect team synergy. That's the biggest difference between a proper 6man and random PUG parties. The other is a unit that has taken months of training to perform flawlessly, trusting one another, and the PUG is just some people who have ended up at the same place and time together. Heck, a good boisband will play effectively even if both tanks are loldps mode, and if their healers are doing damage and healing both.

Its like you didnt read my post man... I never said the mechanic "didnt work" I said that it isnt how players want to play MMOs and we have learned this over the past decade... Or atleast most of us have learned....

This ALL goes back to my initial question (maybe I didnt ask in this thread) but "what is the target audience of this game?"

This is key to identify. If the audience is "Live WAR players - to re-live Live days" then kudos. We have done it, and one could argue it better or worse than LIVE.

If, on the other hand, we want ROR to be BETTER than WAR, and we want ROR to excel and have bigger population (one of the big problems IMO) then we should re-evaluate WHY people leave... I can tell you a MAJOR MAJOR reason. It isnt "lack of gear" its because (in the words of a good friend who recently rage-uninstalled) "This game SUCKS for solo play". Why? Because he was a MDPS, in NA times who didnt want to feel like the only times he could play ROR were when his guild was on, or if his friend were on and to coordinate play times.

Right now, some of the "core" mechanics of the game (like Guard) basically REQUIRE players to play in groups. Mdps NEED tanks who NEED healers and normally I say "this isnt a problem" however something like Guard - you cant control.

Look, I will put it in the words of Crowfall DEVs who did an in depth study on what players want. It all boils down to TWO types of gameplay:

- soft touch
- hard touch

Hard touch is your typical "Raid" idea. It basically requires other players, requires "scheduled play times".

Soft touch systems are games that basically DONT require you to play with other people.

Right now, ROR is like 90% Hard Touch. The only real "soft touch" system would be like solo grinding pots or something... I dont consider "solo-Q" a "soft touch" when the mechanics of the base game - like Guard - basically REQUIRE a tank/dps heals.

This is why people roll Melee Doks or DPS healers or DPS 2h Tanks - these "hybrid" rolls - becuse they are the least "DEPENDENT" as you can get in the game. A DPS Healer (like Shaman or AM) can be a back line RPDS and sustain themself at the same time.

Melee DOk - DPS + Self heals. Etc.

They get to do "2 of the 3" jobs.


Also, my argument is thus:
- in premade groups, guard is swapped to create a positive "QOL" for all players.
- in PUGs and solo play, guard isnt even used to create a VERY negative "QOL" fpr most players.
- if Guard mechanic were changed so it didnt require "swapping" it wouldnt affect premade groups (who, with 2 tanks always have guard on whoever is getting hit).
- if guard mechanic were changed so it didnt require swapping, it WOULD affect solo Qers or PUG groups, creating a much better QOL for everyone.


Premades didnt "lose" anything. The game would play EXACTLY the same: The "Anti-guard" is Punt.
PUG groups, now have a much much better mechanic for ALL players to avoid damage - stick by your tank.

The only people I have met, who disagree with this are people who are in large guilds (EU players) who never have a shortage of people/friend to play with. But what this basically is, is creating a "cool kids only" social group, and what you have seen constantly are people on the "fringe" of these social groups (guilds) quit the game because its not fun to log in at 8pm or 9pm PST (NA time) and have nobody be online. People want to get on, play with friends, and have FUN. Not feel they need to "try hard" 24/7 by finding a 2-2-2 group etc etc.

Sadly, as someone said on the previus page, I doubt the DEVs are open to discussing or changing such a "core" mechanic. However the evidence is clearly there. How often do people rage about DPS tanks or healers? How often do we see threads "DPS Chosen Build" etc pop up.

Plain and Simple: Making Guard an aura that didnt require "swapping" would NOT decrease or impact the "highest level play" but it WOULD impact the "lowest level play" in that it would make ROR a much better experience for everyone. Especially if it provided some "selfish" benefits to compensate for taking increased damage (like giving the tank 10% greater chance to defend from all attacks as one example). The only other thing you would need to adjust are "reflects" to add an ICD to prevent from reflect builds being the new "META".

Now, who WOULD be affected by this change? The "Mid Level" Premade groups that already struggle with PUGs or who WANT an easy PUG win against PUGs. But what I think the focus should be are the highest level play and the "worst experience" players get in this game (which happens FAR too often).

This really is a black and white thing. This would be a far better way of doing Guard, HOWEVER if the goal isnt "making the best game" but rather "a niche game for old WAR players" then it doesnt matter what is "better" it only matters "what LIVE was like".

The general outlook of the team on the game leans progressive, not conservative. We intend to make changes to some areas of the game. We are not interested, at all, in hearing about how this violates your nostalgia or senses of traditionalism and conservatism. Much like the real world, there are wide differences of opinion in how we should progress, and we will not yield to those who disagree with us being disruptive in an attempt to change our way.