This ALL started when I was trying to optimize "how much armor should I have". I was told many things, so I started to test and found out (probably what most people know) armor is pretty damn good... maybe even too good. So I kept things like my Ruin 2 pc bonus for the extra armor and even slotting an armor tali or two.
This evolved into more of a balance discussion recently, as a friend of mine started trying to min/max his damage via armor penetration (Weapon Skill). So we did some testing on various levels of armor. Here are the results (note: I am rounding the armor values here).
@ 2400 armor (~55%)
Attacked with 314 weapon skill = 266 damage.
Attacked with 434 weapon skill = 288 damage.
@ 3000 armor (~68%)
314 weapon skill = 214 damage.
434 weapon skill = 239 damage.
* So this was my first red flag.... I increased my armor a mere 600 points. Assuming the initial value of 266 damage and then having us "both" increase our values, my armor by 600 and his weapon skill by 120.... My armor FAR outpaced his weapon skill increase. In fact. 120 weapon skill = 720 armor equivalent.... So you would think that JUST LIKE TOUGHNESS where it moots out STR at a 1:1 value, weapon skill should be "keeping up with" armor in some fashion... NOT AT ALL....
I can spend just a few slots, pick up 600 armor, spend another 1-2 slots on something ELSE and still FAR outpace his weapon skill... It gets worse.
@3600 armor
314 WS = 158 damage
434 WS = 189 damage.
@4200 armor
314 WS = 112 damage.
434 WS = 148 damage.
Me increasing my armor from 3000 to 4200 nearly cut his damage IN HALF... For 1200 armor... Thats 8 Armor Talis... The equiv of what.... 160 toughness or 160 strength or 160 weapon skill?
No stat value is so powerful.... Even if he were to increase his weapon skill by 200... it wouldnt come CLOSE to "outpacing" the damage decrease I added from armor.
Now this all makes sense... Why I see so many people running around in armor talis... because there is no stat that is as valuable or has as big an impact on damage, like armor.... Sure, adding 160 toughness, thats going to be noticeable... You might see a 10 or 15% drop off in damage from that... but armor? Adding 1000 or 1200 armor... you will see closer to a 50% reduction in damage...
This reminds me of what Az shared:
So I started thinking... why is armor so OP... why doesnt weapon skill counter armor (as a counter-stat)... And I think its because weapon skill's armor pen is "multiplicative" not "additive" - which is what I had THOUGHT it was when I first came here (and what many other games I have played do).Azarael wrote:there's a defensive stat that actually needs bringing into line, and that stat sure ain't Toughness (hint: it's armor)
What the difference is... is this...(for non math people).
If I have ~55% physical mitigation from armor and someone attacks me with 35% armor pen. It DOESNT reduce my physical mitigation down to 20% (55% - 35% = 20%) what it does is 55% * (1-35%) = 35.75%. So 35% armor pen, ends up only allowing you to bypass closer to 20% of their "physical damage resistance"....
This seems a bit odd to me. That there is no "counter stat" to armor. Maybe I am wrong, but looking at my numbers above.... A player at 3000 armor going to 3600 armor even if his attacker increases his own weapon skill by 120 points... The damage reduction goes from 214 down to 189.... A loss of 11.6% damage!!! Even AFTER the guy stacked his weapon skill up 120 points more he STILL lost 11% damage.... Which btw... to make up 11% damage loss here... Think about this.
he would need to stack 120 weapon skill AND ~160 strength to "moot out" a mere 600 armor..... Think about that... 600 armor (in this case) is worth about 120 weapon skill and 160 strength.... that just blows my mind...
This is why every support class (like healers) is (or should be) running armor talis currently....
I cant help but think... "Maybe this formula should be changed so that its an addative function rather than multiplicative" So that if a player adds 10% more armor pen, it will mitigate 10% more "physical damage reduction" which would mean that the armor pen you get from weapon skill, would actually be fairly close to a "counter stat" for armor in that, for 1 tali slot, the ARP gained from weapon skill is roughly able to "counter" the armor gained from that same slot. Doing this, means a "nerf" to armor, which would actually start making toughness more "on par" as an option instead of armor...
So now, if you had 35% armor pen against a 55% armor player, he would have a "net" 20% physical damage reduction left... How I thought it worked from the get go.... Then if you were to armor debuff him down to say 38%, and attacked with 35%, he would have "3% physical damage reduction" left over... So you could (with armor debuff and weapon skill) end up "mooting out) a players armor....
What this ALSO does is starts to create more build variety... Players might slot more weapon skill (at the loss of maybe strength) which is a BIG tradeoff for "parry strikethrough". So it becomes more of a "balancing act" on what stats to have rather than "maxing your primary damage stat, like STR, to the soft cap".... Which I find rather bland atm...
You might also see more physical damage builds, rather than trying to focus on spirit damage, or elemental etc. I can think on my Chosen, it might be worth trying a high weapon skill "Cleave" build rather than the standard "Ravage" build... I know other classes have similar things as well.... This also now makes sense as to why physical damage was always frowned upon... Because the other types of damage go up against resistances that are capped at a MUCH lower amount and the "counter stat" to armor (armor pen) sucks!!!!
What do you guys think? Is armor/should armor be this strong? IMO... I always thought it was silly that anyone (except tanks) ran armor talis... Or... what did I miss here.... Is there something I am not considering or missing here?
