Why do you think that WH Online (Mythic) didn't was successfull?

[GodlessCrom]

We need Mount and Blade: Warhammer. The warsword mod is great, but just imagine how perfect that game would be...

[Haojin]

We need Mount and Blade: Warhammer. The warsword mod is great, but just imagine how perfect that game would be...

pray for the old and new gods to make it happen one day. would be glorious.

Imagine Warhammer in hands of CD PROJEKT

Total war is doing better with warhammer IP than they did with any of the historical games, might see the IP end up in some big names hands after seeing the success.

Don't think we will ever see another MMO though, we are pretty much in the age of arena type PvP games like dota/overwatch etc...

WoW still going on, Camelot Unchained and Crowfall will be released in couple years but i agree ago of mmo's is fading.

[GodlessCrom]

Wow is almost more like a 3d Diablo at this point IMO. In Warlords xpac, it was basically a lobby game: sit in lobby (garrison) and wait for queues to pop or for guild to summon you to raid.

Mmo is dead genre now. Makes me sad, grew up playing them.

[footpatrol2]

So... Only because your bringing up mmo's are dead. Albion online looks amazing and thats a mmo that was just released like a week ago from this posting.

Sorry for the slight derail but its kinda on the current topic of discussion.

[lilsabin]

the future is in fps-Moba's , overwatch , paladins , and maybe Smite

[Adamtess]

Albion does a good job for what it is, if you're looking for another MMO to sink some time into then its a good place to look. I've personally found myself reaching backwards through time to find communities like this one to game with on an old games emulated server.

[footpatrol2]

Same adamtess.
This is why it kinda frustrates me on why player's want to push this game to how current mmo's are working when a lot of the draw is how it was. I don't want to play warhammer online pushed into how new mmo's are handled. Excessively super casual single player friendly atmosphere. If I liked that I wouldn't be playing this game. I'd be playing the new mmo's that are tailor fit to that desire.

[megadeath]

MMOs come and go, but EvE is still kicking.

[th3gatekeeper]

Same adamtess.
This is why it kinda frustrates me on why player's want to push this game to how current mmo's are working when a lot of the draw is how it was. I don't want to play warhammer online pushed into how new mmo's are handled. Excessively super casual single player friendly atmosphere. If I liked that I wouldn't be playing this game. I'd be playing the new mmo's that are tailor fit to that desire.

I think this unfairly categorizes viewpoints.

I dont think many are saying "make it work like current MMOs"... but rather I think we can all agree that some mechanics ARE antiquated and not ideal. This isnt an all or nothing. There are things to WAR/ROR that are appealing. The new space of gaming is (imo) far too casual and the focus is on casual playing rather than building a community. But this doesnt mean, we need to revert things back to how MMOs were played in 2006 but rather we need to examine each thing in light of a stated objective. In ROR the objective is a great GROUP based PVP game.

Here is how I look at gaming. You have to look at 4 different types of play sessions, based on two factors.

1) Time.
long play sessions versus short play sessions

2) Mechanics.
hardcore mechanics vs softcore mechanics (ill explain further).

So We now have 4 VERY different play sessions:
1) Short time sessions with hardcore mechanics
2) Long time sessions with hardcore mechanics
3) Short time sessions with softcore mechanics
4) Long time sessions with softcore mechanics

I think if a game is to succeed it needs to OFFER something in each category, but should FOCUS on 1-2 of these categories to build the game around.

Since #2 (harcore vs softcore mechanics) isnt as intuitive as "long vs short" play sessions ill briefly explain what I mean here.

Hardcore mechanics are, at an extreme example, WOW Raids. This requires massive coordination/communication and likely even scheduling raid times. A good WAR/ROR example of this is RVR. You have Warbands that schedule warband times/days and you get on for long periods of time and play.

Now, on the flip side you have "softcore" mechanics. This would be someone logging in and the ability to, more or less, play by themselves with little interaction with other players. Or little FORCED interaction with other players. The closest thing WAR/ROR has would be a PUG SC.


Too many current games have focused on this "softcore" playerbase, when there is still a desire for the "hardcore" and this is why IMO MMOs today fail.


Now, one of the things I think ROR/WAR does do a poor job of, is this "short time" space, and to add to that, the "softcore" space. This game is (in a good way) massively focused on group PVP. This is the goal of the game. However some of the mechanics are ONLY good in coordination (like assisting or Guard for example).

These are things that IMO could be improved, and where we could LEARN from newer games that have modified some of these types of mechanics.

For instance, Guard is probably my biggest beef with ROR/WAR. Its incredibly self-less. It forces the Tank to be more like a "companion" following around his guard-ee. Its frankly rather skill-less in that in a proper group of 2-2-2 you will be guarding someone and wont REALLY have to swap all that much, so you cast once, simply follow them around and your done.

Its also incredibly frustrating as a guard-ee because it puts the ENTIRE reliance on if you get guard, on the tank himself.

So how can we look at this an maybe improve it?

First, the principle of guard should be adjusted so that it has a selfISH benefit to it, and in virtue of having this selfISH benefit, ALL tanks will use it, which then if done right, also creates situations where SOME of the "guard" burden is placed on the guard-ees where if they want guard, rather than /telling a tank to "please guard me and follow me" you merely stay by THEM and get guard in virtue of them using its selfISH properties.

Also, guard is very passive currently (imo) and we can make it more active.

These are things that newer games HAVE adjusted and IMO have done correctly. They may have a poor FOCUS of the game (focusing too much on the casual market) but many of the MECHANICS are actually very well thought out so they are used in BOTH "hardcore" sessions AND "softcore" sessions.

So for guard. How this could work MUCH better would be something like this:
Guard: Increases your defenses giving you 20% increased parry/dodge/disrupt for 8 seconds. During this time, you will intercept HALF the damage intended for any party member within 30 feet (so it might work like a 30 foot aoe aura for 8 seconds). 15 second cooldown. (dont get too hung up on exact numbers, but merely the idea itself).

So now, we have made this a more skill-ful, ACTIVE ability that requires timing and has a downtime (say hello to guard coordination). We have added selfISH benefits to this, so a tank might even use guard to save HIMSELF, while at the same time, if you are now a MDPS class, and you rely HEAVILY on guard, you can now take matters into your own hands and stay near your tank to get it - no longer feeling forced to beg them to cast it on you.

You now also have more ways to counter guard. Rather than punting the current guarding tank, you could punt the SECOND tank in the group, and then DPS during a "downtime" on the first tanks guard.

Things like this are what newer games do better than ROR/WAR. The mechanics appeal to BOTH types of play sessions and gamers. A classic example that ROR DOES do would be "Hold the Line" - it provides YOU a benefit and also your PARTY a benefit. Selfish+selfless uses. Ive seen SNB tanks use HTL in pug warbands/SCs... I RARELY see tanks using guard in PUG SCs/Warbands... because it requires quite a bit of self-sacrifice to use, AND coordiation to use...

Anyways, im creating massive walls of text, but I hope you see the difference between trying to make a GAME more like "new games" versus trying to adopt a few "mechanics" that actually ARE improvements over the "old way" of doing things.

[ragafury]

Spoiler:

Same adamtess.
This is why it kinda frustrates me on why player's want to push this game to how current mmo's are working when a lot of the draw is how it was. I don't want to play warhammer online pushed into how new mmo's are handled. Excessively super casual single player friendly atmosphere. If I liked that I wouldn't be playing this game. I'd be playing the new mmo's that are tailor fit to that desire.

I think this unfairly categorizes viewpoints.

I dont think many are saying "make it work like current MMOs"... but rather I think we can all agree that some mechanics ARE antiquated and not ideal. This isnt an all or nothing. There are things to WAR/ROR that are appealing. The new space of gaming is (imo) far too casual and the focus is on casual playing rather than building a community. But this doesnt mean, we need to revert things back to how MMOs were played in 2006 but rather we need to examine each thing in light of a stated objective. In ROR the objective is a great GROUP based PVP game.

Here is how I look at gaming. You have to look at 4 different types of play sessions, based on two factors.

1) Time.
long play sessions versus short play sessions

2) Mechanics.
hardcore mechanics vs softcore mechanics (ill explain further).

So We now have 4 VERY different play sessions:
1) Short time sessions with hardcore mechanics
2) Long time sessions with hardcore mechanics
3) Short time sessions with softcore mechanics
4) Long time sessions with softcore mechanics

I think if a game is to succeed it needs to OFFER something in each category, but should FOCUS on 1-2 of these categories to build the game around.

Since #2 (harcore vs softcore mechanics) isnt as intuitive as "long vs short" play sessions ill briefly explain what I mean here.

Hardcore mechanics are, at an extreme example, WOW Raids. This requires massive coordination/communication and likely even scheduling raid times. A good WAR/ROR example of this is RVR. You have Warbands that schedule warband times/days and you get on for long periods of time and play.

Now, on the flip side you have "softcore" mechanics. This would be someone logging in and the ability to, more or less, play by themselves with little interaction with other players. Or little FORCED interaction with other players. The closest thing WAR/ROR has would be a PUG SC.


Too many current games have focused on this "softcore" playerbase, when there is still a desire for the "hardcore" and this is why IMO MMOs today fail.


Now, one of the things I think ROR/WAR does do a poor job of, is this "short time" space, and to add to that, the "softcore" space. This game is (in a good way) massively focused on group PVP. This is the goal of the game. However some of the mechanics are ONLY good in coordination (like assisting or Guard for example).

These are things that IMO could be improved, and where we could LEARN from newer games that have modified some of these types of mechanics.

For instance, Guard is probably my biggest beef with ROR/WAR. Its incredibly self-less. It forces the Tank to be more like a "companion" following around his guard-ee. Its frankly rather skill-less in that in a proper group of 2-2-2 you will be guarding someone and wont REALLY have to swap all that much, so you cast once, simply follow them around and your done.

Its also incredibly frustrating as a guard-ee because it puts the ENTIRE reliance on if you get guard, on the tank himself.

So how can we look at this an maybe improve it?

First, the principle of guard should be adjusted so that it has a selfISH benefit to it, and in virtue of having this selfISH benefit, ALL tanks will use it, which then if done right, also creates situations where SOME of the "guard" burden is placed on the guard-ees where if they want guard, rather than /telling a tank to "please guard me and follow me" you merely stay by THEM and get guard in virtue of them using its selfISH properties.

Also, guard is very passive currently (imo) and we can make it more active.

These are things that newer games HAVE adjusted and IMO have done correctly. They may have a poor FOCUS of the game (focusing too much on the casual market) but many of the MECHANICS are actually very well thought out so they are used in BOTH "hardcore" sessions AND "softcore" sessions.

So for guard. How this could work MUCH better would be something like this:
Guard: Increases your defenses giving you 20% increased parry/dodge/disrupt for 8 seconds. During this time, you will intercept HALF the damage intended for any party member within 30 feet (so it might work like a 30 foot aoe aura for 8 seconds). 15 second cooldown. (dont get too hung up on exact numbers, but merely the idea itself).

So now, we have made this a more skill-ful, ACTIVE ability that requires timing and has a downtime (say hello to guard coordination). We have added selfISH benefits to this, so a tank might even use guard to save HIMSELF, while at the same time, if you are now a MDPS class, and you rely HEAVILY on guard, you can now take matters into your own hands and stay near your tank to get it - no longer feeling forced to beg them to cast it on you.

You now also have more ways to counter guard. Rather than punting the current guarding tank, you could punt the SECOND tank in the group, and then DPS during a "downtime" on the first tanks guard.

Things like this are what newer games do better than ROR/WAR. The mechanics appeal to BOTH types of play sessions and gamers. A classic example that ROR DOES do would be "Hold the Line" - it provides YOU a benefit and also your PARTY a benefit. Selfish+selfless uses. Ive seen SNB tanks use HTL in pug warbands/SCs... I RARELY see tanks using guard in PUG SCs/Warbands... because it requires quite a bit of self-sacrifice to use, AND coordiation to use...

Anyways, im creating massive walls of text, but I hope you see the difference between trying to make a GAME more like "new games" versus trying to adopt a few "mechanics" that actually ARE improvements over the "old way" of doing things.

clunky trash ability

#makeguardgreatagain
#2-2-2rarelyswitchesguard