Extreme stat value's and debuff's

[footpatrol2]

Ok so I looked it up on the old prima guide. Granted... prima guide is super dated and everything semi can be thrown out on it as a thang. But it kinda gives you an idea of what the hell the mythic dev's were thinking.

I'm referencing extreme builds here with pushing specific stats WAY higher then normal with defensive morale cycle's.

Warping of the spirit tactic on the zealot was a small heal plus Large action point feed for the zealot upon death of the harbringer target. It was not a mirrored tactic of regenerative runes from the RP. This means... Destruction didn't have nearly as high armor builds that order could have built. Destro didn't have 1056 armor buff that warping spirit can provide today. Order did through regenerative runes tactic.

Heavy armor build for order = regenerative runes tactic + mountain spirit m2 (old 30 sec) + dwarf racial tactic.

The high armor debuff coming from the marauder is justified vs the extreme high armor builds that dwarves can make. Dwarves have the highest armor builds available in the game. Kinda makes sense right?

Order can't build resist builds as high as chaos can while maintaining max morale gain rates. Chaos can hit extremely high magic resist builds... which also makes sense because the main god of worship is tzeentch. Destro resist buff = Sprout carapace + discord aura.

WL's never had the armor debuff forced opportunity because it wasn't needed. Because destruction can't build nearly as high armor builds as order (specifically dwarves) can. Destro Can make Really high resist builds thou. Way higher then anything order can.

SM's have the double tap on resists (heaven's blade + wrath of hoeth). Why? Because destro can buff resistance super high.

Order gets a high armor defensive morale cycle. Mara's get a beefy armor debuff.
Destruction gets a high magic resists defensive morale cycle. SM's get a beefy resists debuff.

That's how things were balanced I think. I dunno makes sense to me.
I think chaos hard counter's dwarves. Chaos hard counter's dwarves via the lore also.
High elves hard counter chaos. High elves hard counter chaos via the lore also.

I think what we have here in the current game is just residual stuff. Old mechanic's that have been left unchanged and the original purpose was taken away. I think after mark jacobs left, mythic was told by EA "Save as many subs as you can, I don't care what you do." So mythic just started listening to the community. The community doesn't know anything...

Morale bombs are justified due to the extreme high defensive morale cycle's that were available in the game at one time. It is also a skill/gear check. Meaning even a lowbie rank player that is willing to participate in organization/coordination can compete against a sov gear/RR 80 player team. Gear value's don't really matter that much in a morale bomb meta. Organization/coordination is what matter's which is what you want in a pvp game. Combat is just suppose to be faster then what the community thinks. Banner's are suppose to be used in all forms of fighting to reach those morale gain rates.

[sanii]

Kek,

Just the resistance system had to be looked/reworked by mythic 2-3 times , going from broken/not function resists at the start of the game, to 75% capped resistances where casters felt gutted for half a month followed by the softcap at 40-45% and them working constantly on the resistance numbers to not make casters too strong/too weak.

That guide is from an age where there were no proper cc immunities and you could get AoE chainstunned by BWs/DoKs for 20 years, BWs could tab dot people to death without even thinking , mara/SW was a non existant class , kotbs/choppa/slayer/BG weren't even in at the very release.

Now if you are saying that it made sense to you how mythic 'balanced' things , and how the 'original' purpose was taken away , then i can only say you sir have no idea how bad things actually were then. Not having immunities at the start , whiles adding long ass CC , even aoe CC - on the most powerful class at that time -BW while giving the mirror to the DoK (which was quite bad on release together with WP as they didn't have regen on offhands).
And as far as 'defensive morale's you are forgetting that once DoKs were made functional as healers, they not only had a morale pump which could get you to m4 out of combat just like the AM (which was a crappy healer at relase aswell due to massive setbacks - if you had a squig pet on you you couldn't cast) they also had the most broken of all defensive morals which was 1k1 blessings , which is mountain spirit/sprout carapace with the small upside of giving you 25% dodge,parry,disrupt -stackable of course.

But it kinda gives you an idea of what the hell the mythic dev's were thinking.

I could go on for ages about all of the oversights of mythic and how much clue they actually had of what they were doing in regards to 'balance' and numbers but one thing is for sure they weren't thinking nearly enough as you want to credit them.

Morale dump's are were insane, no aoe caps, morale generation out of combat and guild flags etc. , you could basically exterminate someone without them even having the chance to act if you exploited every system that mythic made available to you.

Over the course of the game they had to fix many of their quite frankly 'retarded' oversights in balance and approach to the game hence they had to gut/change various mechanic

[Scrilian]

All fine but Mountain Spirit(Eye of Sheerian) never stacked with anything nor did regen runes, unlike 1k1 Dark Blessings (which DoK himself could pump all by himself in less than 20 second with his old 250morale for 55 essence tactic) that stacked with everything and lasted 30 seconds. Heck, my destro friend at the time used to boast that he could pump his M3 out of combat with old 16 essence chalices.

And it was easily followed by Sprout Carapace for another 30 seconds, which also stacked with everything, self-pumped by Chosen tactic and a little help from DoK.
This is form the period when forts were removed and up until redesigned City Sieges, that removed PvE instances and added that champion-like nonsense. Tested numerous times on my server in dueling vent, can bet my vodka on this

You can add a bit of Wind-woven Shell, Crippling Strikes and a few other tools to see the whole picture of how fun it was to play as order against anyone decent.

I don't even see the point of the thread tho, mara on release removed 75% armor, 75% healing and stopped 100% ap regen, while dealing laughable damage, just as an example.

[footpatrol2]

I am not stating that things were balanced at release. 100% it was not balanced at release. I will not take a defensive stance at the release of the game, because it was not finished and the game was broke as hell. 4 Classes weren't even in the game yet on release.

I personally think patch 1.3 was closest to a balanced state that we have ever experienced. I'm not saying patch 1.3 was perfect. It needed a lot of work but It was more closer to balanced then what happened after and before.

I only referenced the prima guide to find out what warping of the spirit did before it was mirrored to regen runes tactic.

I should have been more clear I guess. I was just showing how buff's and debuff's were balanced yet different. Order got the highest armor value's in the game, while maintaining the highest morale gain rates. Destro got the highest resist value's in the game while maintaining the highest morale gain rates.

The mara's heavy debuff to armor is justified because of order's high armor buff. The Debuff from SM is justified because of the high resists buff's Destro can get.

Mountain spirit + regen runes stacked adding roughly 2300 armor to your group. I know this because I used it all the time in my group comps in AoR. It still stacks.

As does sprout carapace + warping the spirit tactic which wasn't available... on destro side.

When the WL got a mirrored armor debuff like the mara the game started to become unbalanced.

[sanii]

When the WL got a mirrored armor debuff like the mara the game started to become unbalanced.

Aaaaaaah thanks for reminding me that the WL armor debuff is what made the game so unbalanced. Poor destro never had to deal with powerful armor debuffs . Kappa

http://el.warhammeronline.wikia.com/wiki/Stone_Breaker



Also you keep ignoring the existence of 1k1 blessing in your 'more armor /resist theory' which was located on the class that could build morale the easiest at the time and was the strongest healer on destro for the majority of its life cycle.

[footpatrol2]

When they changed the WL to have the armor debuff they destroyed the guardian tree.

And... I know about 1k1 blessings. I disagree with the disgusting nerf they had done to 1k1 blessings. I disagree with all the defensive morale cycle nerf's.

I don't see a problem with 1k1 blessings tbh, or with dok's single target morale pumping. I think it should make a comeback. The issue is with stacking not with 1k1. Have 1k1 blessings not stack on anything but dark elf classes and its fixed.

Same with sprout carapace. Don't have sprout carapace stack with player's that are not chaos player's.
Same with mountain spirit.

viewtopic.php?f=97&t=21332

The issue is mixed group exploits.

[th3gatekeeper]

Honestly,

I think that AOR tried to be creative, and I give them huge kudos for doing so. They tried to make a heavily lore/RP game with a very intricate web of "balance" design that at many points in the game, seemed to be "thrown out the window" due to many different reasons (some of which are listed in this thread).

I think its creative and cool that classes are not mirrored... But I think achieving "balance" is only something that can honestly be done with a large DEV team.

I dont go more than a few days before some type of "imbalance" thread opens up... I dont log into the game for more than a few Minutes to see people making comments about "X class OP" etc.

There will ALWAYS be an "Order is OP" no "Destru is OP" back and forth.

frankly.... im just kinda over it. I would love to see them more closely mirror classes and make the game more "open" architecture for character design/build.

Id like to see classes able to get outside their "archtype" better than they can now.
Id like to see more weapon choice (DW tanks for instance), maybe even armor choices...
Id like to see a DEVIATION from the "gear sets are the best gear" mantra this game has seen by REMOVING set bonuses, make each piece offer stats and benefits and players mix and match the best stuff they want.
Id like to see sheer STATS actually do more for classes. Wounds should give more HP. Strength Intellect should give more +dmg. Weaponskill should provide more value, toughness should be increased as well, etc. etc...

Your "build" and "role" in your group should be (conceptually) derived from liek 50% "archtype" and 50% "stats/build".

Overall though - Id like to see classes more mirrored. As good as the DEVs are... I think its impossible for them to really grasp how minor changes impact overall balance. As much as we like to think we are smart, we start looking at how massive the "web of balance" is, and I think its too much.

Order complains because of "Run Away!" tactic, Destru complains because of pounce, order complains because "morale pumps" destru complains because Knights are better than Chosen, etc. etc. etc... It never ends.

Ill close with 1 final word, because I already know people assume the worst of a suggestion on this forum.... I am NOT saying take the easy way out and copy/paste and give classes NO unique-ness. But what I am saying is, there should be a closer "mirror system" than there is now. To compare two classes I know the most.... You have a few key abilities.

Knights have no morale pumps. Chosen do. So maybe Knights need a morale pump.
Knights get to boost party crit (2h or SNB spec), Chosen dont. So maybe lets even this out.

Things like this. Not "copy/paste" but a "version" - a UNIQUE "version" but of similar benefits....

[Arteker616]

Destru used to had aswell beside mara other means to deal with high armoured targets , namely 2 tactics for hoppa and bo wich did allow to stack armour debuffs .

Aswell sorc single target damage with prenerfed absorb vitality + infernal gift or shades being a debuff did help alot.

in other hand order morales were always superior to destru , destru had the pumps but their morales were garbage .

i remember a rp guild full of dwarfs did once to us a full dump of 10 ibs with vegeance m4 and they killed over 200 players in 1 sec with a spam of axe slam . was rare than classic raze spam but back then with no aoe target limits and each m4 doing 2kish of dmg well make the numbers.