Gunbad !!

[bloodi]

It’s average time, it’s not the time they all have to take , each pq should be at the same difficulty level , or you would make one wing easier than the other ? You need a base to work on you can’t just make trash takes 1 min per pq because ... ?

3 hours for a whole dungeons is not that long , or with your « entire timer «  average boss time and pq should be :

5 min per boss X 13 bosses = 65 min
3 min per pq stage X 9 pq stage = 27 min

3 hours for a whole duingeon is definetly long, again, my progression guild in TBC/WoTLK would just require me to be there for 2 hours once a week (there were 3 raid days, you were only required to attend one) past that, i was a free man, did i play for longer somedays? Of course, a lot longer but they already understood the concept of people just having lives outside the game, so if i wanted i could leave past those 2 hours and someone would step in.

And each wing should have the similar difficulty levels, like the bosses, pqs can be as easy or hard as you want them to be, why do you limit yourself with this "x should take y time" idea at all? There is nothing bad about smooth pqs that take little time if you know how to do them.

Content is not bad because it takes little time to do however, content can be real bad when its not interesting to do and on top of it, takes a lot of time to do it.

Tell me how you make a boss challenging and hard with fun mechanics in 5 min ?

I am really puzzled by this question, do you really think bosses take 10 mins at minimum on other games at all?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Enrage_(mechanic)

Just take a look at the examples, there is plenty of bosses with an enrage timer of 5 minutes, if you dont know what that is, that means the upper limit of the fight is 5 minutes, if you dont do it in that time, it will most likely wipe your group within seconds unless you are really close to the kill.

I really dont know where you got this idea that everything should have a minimum time to do or else is not a "real" whatever but you are being really limited by it, you should try to avoid such mentality.

What makes dungeons, pqs and bosses interesting and engaging, is the mechanics required and what you have to do in them, not the time it takes to do them.

Stop using hp and grind as your only tool to make things difficult, thats all we ask.

[Grunbag]

And time doesn’t matter when we build dungeon . I just talked about average time to show you that kill 13 boss in 60 min (as you asked ) mean kill them in less than 5 min and each 9 pq stage in 30 min (to match your 90 min for entire dungeon) would make it achieved in 3 min .

Testers here can confirm that we don’t ask them how long each boss takes , and we discuss the dungeons aspect with them all the time . It’s not a biased build

[Grunbag]

It’s average time, it’s not the time they all have to take , each pq should be at the same difficulty level , or you would make one wing easier than the other ? You need a base to work on you can’t just make trash takes 1 min per pq because ... ?

3 hours for a whole dungeons is not that long , or with your « entire timer «  average boss time and pq should be :

5 min per boss X 13 bosses = 65 min
3 min per pq stage X 9 pq stage = 27 min

3 hours for a whole duingeon is definetly long, again, my progression guild in TBC/WoTLK would just require me to be there for 2 hours once a week (there were 3 raid days, you were only required to attend one) past that, i was a free man, did i play for longer somedays? Of course, a lot longer but they already understood the concept of people just having lives outside the game, so if i wanted i could leave past those 2 hours and someone would step in.

And each wing should have the similar difficulty levels, like the bosses, pqs can be as easy or hard as you want them to be, why do you limit yourself with this "x should take y time" idea at all? There is nothing bad about smooth pqs that take little time if you know how to do them.

Content is not bad because it takes little time to do however, content can be real bad when its not interesting to do and on top of it, takes a lot of time to do it.

Tell me how you make a boss challenging and hard with fun mechanics in 5 min ?

I am really puzzled by this question, do you really think bosses take 10 mins at minimum on other games at all?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Enrage_(mechanic)

Just take a look at the examples, there is plenty of bosses with an enrage timer of 5 minutes, if you dont know what that is, that means the upper limit of the fight is 5 minutes, if you dont do it in that time, it will most likely wipe your group within seconds unless you are really close to the kill.

I really dont know where you got this idea that everything should have a minimum time to do or else is not a "real" whatever but you are being really limited by it, you should try to avoid such mentality.

What makes dungeons, pqs and bosses interesting and engaging, is the mechanics required and what you have to do in them, not the time it takes to do them.

Stop using hp and grind as your only tool to make things difficult, thats all we ask.

In your link they reported fights lasting over 30 min

[bloodi]

I am just making the point that your "how can i make thing interesting if they take less than 10 mins" is a weird stance to take, really weird, plenty of games have intesresting encounters that last 5 mins or less, you dont need the pqs to at least require x time to make them interesting.

I know its not bias or that you are not actively trying to make it long (despite the fact that well, Hargrim just said otherwise but hey) but you need to understand that the biggest reason why no one bothers to do Gunbad, yeah, even after you reduced mob density and hp pools like twice, is how long it takes to do it at all.

Bosses for the most part could have half the hp and you would face the same challenge, you wouldnt need to suffer it for so long, same with pq requirements, when the group already showed they can engage the first pack of aoe mobs and tank them properly, making them do it another 10 times doesnt make it harder, just makes it frustrating.

Everyone would agree with you that it needs to be hard but that it should take 4,5 hours to do it when its not hard at all? I dont see why that is any good.

In your link they reported fights lasting over 30 min

Yeah, because there were end of the expansion bosses with cinematics, scenario changes and multiple phases that heavily changed the encounter.

When you are able to do that, you can get 10, 15, 25 or 40 minutes fights as long as they are fun to do. The problem is none of the Gunbad fights are like that, they are things you probably figure out fast and just repeat for 10 minutes because of the ridiculous hp pool.

And its in direct response to "how can i make fights that are good if they only last 5 minutes". You totally can, you just gotta try first.

[Grunbag]

I am just making the point that your "how can i make thing interesting if they take less than 10 mins" is a weird stance to take, really weird, plenty of games have intesresting encounters that last 5 mins or less, you dont need the pqs to at least require x time to make them interesting.

I know its not bias or that you are not actively trying to make it long (despite the fact that well, Hargrim just said otherwise but hey) but you need to understand that the biggest reason why no one bothers to do Gunbad, yeah, even after you reduced mob density and hp pools like twice, is how long it takes to do it at all.

Bosses for the most part could have half the hp and you would face the same challenge, you wouldnt need to suffer it for so long, same with pq requirements, when the group already showed they can engage the first pack of aoe mobs and tank them properly, making them do it another 10 times doesnt make it harder, just makes it frustrating.

Everyone would agree with you that it needs to be hard but that it should take 4,5 hours to do it when its not hard at all? I dont see why that is any good.

In your link they reported fights lasting over 30 min

Yeah, because there were end of the expansion bosses with cinematics, scenario changes and multiple phases that heavily changed the encounter.

When you are able to do that, you can get 10, 15, 25 or 40 minutes fights as long as they are fun to do. The problem is none of the Gunbad fights are like that, they are things you probably figure out fast and just repeat for 10 minutes because of the ridiculous hp pool.

And its in direct response to "how can i make fights that are good if they only last 5 minutes". You totally can, you just gotta try first.

This doesn’t work like you just describe .

Most npc mechanics works with timer or HP percentage . So if you can dps the boss 10% in less that 45 sec , the mechanics event would happen , once? Maybe you would not notice the event at all .

It’s not about time or hp , tester just told us if the mechanics were noticeable , challenging , abusable . If you can rush a boss in few sec this probably won’t happen. And again , I make the difficulty according to tester , who spent hours / weeks into test dungeons. You should come and test

[bloodi]

This doesn’t work like you just describe .

Most npc mechanics works with timer or HP percentage . So if you can dps the boss 10% in less that 45 sec , the mechanics event would happen , once? Maybe you would not notice the event at all .

Probably because i never talked about any of that at all, why you are telling me this? In resposnse to what? And who told you that i wanted to dps the boss in less than 45 secs? Why are you defaulting to making a strawman out of my post?

It’s not about time or hp , tester just told us if the mechanics were noticeable , challenging , abusable . If you can rush a boss in few sec this probably won’t happen. And again , I make the difficulty according to tester , who spent hours / weeks into test dungeons. You should come and test

i dont have to test the dungeon before you release it to see that after you nerfed the hp and mob density twice, people still think (me included) that it takes way too long.

Seriously, i offered you feedback, things that most of the playerbase agree with and all you did was pretend i wanted to speed run bosses in 45 secs and if i want to give feedback, i should have given it previous to the dungeon release?

[Grunbag]

This doesn’t work like you just describe .

Most npc mechanics works with timer or HP percentage . So if you can dps the boss 10% in less that 45 sec , the mechanics event would happen , once? Maybe you would not notice the event at all .

Probably because i never talked about any of that at all, why you are telling me this? In resposnse to what? And who told you that i wanted to dps the boss in less than 45 secs? Why are you defaulting to making a strawman out of my post?

It’s not about time or hp , tester just told us if the mechanics were noticeable , challenging , abusable . If you can rush a boss in few sec this probably won’t happen. And again , I make the difficulty according to tester , who spent hours / weeks into test dungeons. You should come and test

i dont have to test the dungeon before you release it to see that after you nerfed the hp and mob density twice, people still think (me included) that it takes way too long.

Seriously, i offered you feedback, things that most of the playerbase agree with and all you did was pretend i wanted to speed run bosses in 45 secs and if i want to give feedback, i should have given it previous to the dungeon release?

If I understood your link , bosses that takes 5 min to kill was enough , and it mean you can dps 10% of his hp in 30/45 sec .

Anyway , there is no power wards here like on live , or possibility to duo a dungeon anymore or rush it .

Dungeons are fine tuned , by testers every weeks . Actually gunbad is at a good place with recent changes and the futur vendor system .
Aggro issues will en fixed at next patch

[lefze]

I did over 400 hours of pve in another MMO in just over a month recently. That's over 400 hours more than I would willingly spend doing pve in this game right now, likely ever.

Good pve=enjoyable grind even if the rewards are minimal. Subpar pve=Not enjoyable grind even if the rewards are rather awesome. So that leaves two paths. Either improve the pve to a point where it's amazing (which simply isn't doable with what you have to work with imo) or shorten the grind significantly for any given pve set.

One issue created by the pve being horrible in itself, is that it's not viable to have one huge dungeon at a time that grants a single set. Would of course take work to make it one set, or even two sets per wing, but at that point you have something that matches the time investment AND has a much greater chance of catering to a broader portion of the playerbase.

Another issue is that the combination of the time investment for a single set, and dungeons being used for gear progression rather than variety will lead to the pve sets having to take a backseat to pvp sets as people simply won't sink hours upon hours into grinding something subpar, that often doesn't even cater in the slightest to even a single spec of any particular class.

So basically what I'm trying to say, is that the game doesn't need to have tiered gear progression. It can also have sideways "progression" that allows for greater variety in builds, much more relevant content at any given time, and can shorten the grind for every particular set significantly as there would be more sets to be grinded. Especially pve is a perfect avenue to release several completely different sets for each class, at the same powerlevel. Obviously requires work on the pvp gear part aswell, but if anything this is a far superior approach to tiered gear here too as it prevents any bigger gaps than there are now.

[Jedii]

Gunbad is not difficult! Its a learning curve,if u learn the strats its pretty simple,people want to be hand fed always and aren't willing to put time and effort into learning, I think it is challenging but fun,only disappointment is none is interested,the gear u get is below par,and not worth the effort ,seeds,liniments and scavenging is worth the effort,but honestly ,nothing beats working hard as a team and dropping Solithex,great work devs as this instance is great fun

[Ugle]

Point is. Unless you get a steady group, which you wont, because ppl drop when they finish the set, you will spend a lot of time failing due to the "learning curve" because ppl are new to the content. Hence your 90 minutes one wing run turns into 3 hrs waste of time. And that is before factoring in the bugs like aggro and wounds debuff which is the worst current bugs affecting pve content.