Current take on "zerg busting" on RoR

[Skullgrin]

After reading thru this thread all I see are complaints that the game systems need to be tweaked or abilities need to be buffed/nerfed, however to my mind the real problem is that of the tactics being used to counter being outnumbered.

When you are outnumbered by an opponent you have to adapt to the fact and adjust your tactics appropriately. You have to be willing to retreat when necessary (using tactics such as a center peel ). Try to not leave allies behind by retreating in as orderly fashion as you can, but accept the fact that when outnumbered people will inevitably be cut off from your group and killed.

You need to use the terrain to hide part of your force in order to set up ambushes when your opponent chases after the retreating part of your group. Just as in real life, people tend to not look up when scanning about for danger. Many of the zones have terrain that overhangs the main pathways large groups use (Black Crag and Thunder Mountain being the most obvious, however most zones have them). These can be used to your advantage when setting a trap. A surprise flanking maneuver hitting your enemy in the side or rear can cause havoc in their ranks - which will act as a force multiplier in the right situations. Panic among your enemy is what you are going for, recognize it when it happens and take advantage of it.

Use your allies as bait (and allow yourself in turn to be used) to pull your opponents into situations where you can overpower them. A well organized 6 man unit can kite a larger force, stringing them out and making them vulnerable to hit and run tactics.

Recognize that capturing BO's can be used to fragment a larger opponent. I roam solo the majority of the time and have pulled entire warbands off to a BO at the far end of a zone by capping it and just sitting there alone. Doing this allows your allies to capitalize on the fact that your opponents have divided their forces in the anticipation of there being a large group at the BO. Sure you may die, but if it allows your realm to profit in the long run, take one for the team.

Note whom among your opponents lead charges and seem to direct their movements, then target them. I've seen countless charges devolve into chaos simply via the death of warband leaders. Be aware that the leader may not always be in front leading the charge, he could also be a ranged class directing the fight from the rear.

Finally, read up on small unit tactics and apply them when fighting in ORvR. There's a lot written on the subject and most of it can be useful in game. The key is to improvise, adapt and then overcome.

[theoddone]

After reading thru this thread all I see are complaints that the game systems need to be tweaked or abilities need to be buffed/nerfed, however to my mind the real problem is that of the tactics being used to counter being outnumbered.

When you are outnumbered by an opponent you have to adapt to the fact and adjust your tactics appropriately. You have to be willing to retreat when necessary (using tactics such as a center peel ). Try to not leave allies behind by retreating in as orderly fashion as you can, but accept the fact that when outnumbered people will inevitably be cut off from your group and killed.

You need to use the terrain to hide part of your force in order to set up ambushes when your opponent chases after the retreating part of your group. Just as in real life, people tend to not look up when scanning about for danger. Many of the zones have terrain that overhangs the main pathways large groups use (Black Crag and Thunder Mountain being the most obvious, however most zones have them). These can be used to your advantage when setting a trap. A surprise flanking maneuver hitting your enemy in the side or rear can cause havoc in their ranks - which will act as a force multiplier in the right situations. Panic among your enemy is what you are going for, recognize it when it happens and take advantage of it.

Use your allies as bait (and allow yourself in turn to be used) to pull your opponents into situations where you can overpower them. A well organized 6 man unit can kite a larger force, stringing them out and making them vulnerable to hit and run tactics.

Recognize that capturing BO's can be used to fragment a larger opponent. I roam solo the majority of the time and have pulled entire warbands off to a BO at the far end of a zone by capping it and just sitting there alone. Doing this allows your allies to capitalize on the fact that your opponents have divided their forces in the anticipation of there being a large group at the BO. Sure you may die, but if it allows your realm to profit in the long run, take one for the team.

Note whom among your opponents lead charges and seem to direct their movements, then target them. I've seen countless charges devolve into chaos simply via the death of warband leaders. Be aware that the leader may not always be in front leading the charge, he could also be a ranged class directing the fight from the rear.

Finally, read up on small unit tactics and apply them when fighting in ORvR. There's a lot written on the subject and most of it can be useful in game. The key is to improvise, adapt and then overcome.

Do you recommend reading The art of war by Sun Tzu? If so, which tactics from it do you prefer?

[Skullgrin]

Do you recommend reading The art of war by Sun Tzu? If so, which tactics from it do you prefer?

I'd have dig out the pocket edition I keep in my copy of the game "Diplomacy". Haven't read thru that in about 20 years, so some of it is a bit fuzzy...

[adamthelc]

The real problem with removing the effectiveness of bomb groups is that the effectiveness of healers is the same. Which is where the real imbalance comes into play when one side has significantly more numbers.

You dont need to buff the smaller force. Just debuff the larger force either through reduced healing taken or increase in damage taken. The larger force should still come out on top, they just might actually lose people.

It should also only be applied when numbers are considerably uneven. Meaning in at 18 v 24 or something similar nothing should be applied.

[Wuu]

After reading thru this thread all I see are complaints that the game systems need to be tweaked or abilities need to be buffed/nerfed, however to my mind the real problem is that of the tactics being used to counter being outnumbered.

When you are outnumbered by an opponent you have to adapt to the fact and adjust your tactics appropriately. You have to be willing to retreat when necessary (using tactics such as a center peel ). Try to not leave allies behind by retreating in as orderly fashion as you can, but accept the fact that when outnumbered people will inevitably be cut off from your group and killed.

You need to use the terrain to hide part of your force in order to set up ambushes when your opponent chases after the retreating part of your group. Just as in real life, people tend to not look up when scanning about for danger. Many of the zones have terrain that overhangs the main pathways large groups use (Black Crag and Thunder Mountain being the most obvious, however most zones have them). These can be used to your advantage when setting a trap. A surprise flanking maneuver hitting your enemy in the side or rear can cause havoc in their ranks - which will act as a force multiplier in the right situations. Panic among your enemy is what you are going for, recognize it when it happens and take advantage of it.

Use your allies as bait (and allow yourself in turn to be used) to pull your opponents into situations where you can overpower them. A well organized 6 man unit can kite a larger force, stringing them out and making them vulnerable to hit and run tactics.

Recognize that capturing BO's can be used to fragment a larger opponent. I roam solo the majority of the time and have pulled entire warbands off to a BO at the far end of a zone by capping it and just sitting there alone. Doing this allows your allies to capitalize on the fact that your opponents have divided their forces in the anticipation of there being a large group at the BO. Sure you may die, but if it allows your realm to profit in the long run, take one for the team.

Note whom among your opponents lead charges and seem to direct their movements, then target them. I've seen countless charges devolve into chaos simply via the death of warband leaders. Be aware that the leader may not always be in front leading the charge, he could also be a ranged class directing the fight from the rear.

Finally, read up on small unit tactics and apply them when fighting in ORvR. There's a lot written on the subject and most of it can be useful in game. The key is to improvise, adapt and then overcome.

Pretty much my point. Good leaders = good tactics. I've been in WBs that have done amazing against 60-80 aao, but once the leaders leave our side just melts away. I'm a terrible leader and terrible player, but good with tactics and communication.
At least that's what me mum tells me.

PS- Thargrimm, I hate you so much.

[roadkillrobin]

"Completely bonkers and busted" that smaller group of enemies attacked from two sides by larger force will hit slightly more targets with aoe or get morale a bit faster? What?
How is it worse than bigger group getting AAO advantage on their side or one person 3-shotting bunch of enemies with regular aoe attack alone?

Coz with a hypotetical AAO buff you know what you have to work with and doesn't personally screwed by allies showing up from nowere and possible get you wiped just coz the smaller force got buffed by their pressence.
Both are bad ideas and rely to much on RNG for the outcome of the engagement. I mean it makes no sence that an aly warband wouldn't engage a battle coz it would risk boosting the enemy.

You overreact to the very concept while failing to acknowledge the potential positive changes to tactics and player psychology and the fact that the entire thing would first be tweaked and balanced around actual numbers.

People play competitive Hearthstone and you say potential turn of battle from roughly the same conditions to something like "more people vs longer sticks" is "too much randomness" and entirely broken without even having any concept of how much longer their sticks would actually be.
If you didn't get that here's an example: hitting 1 more target with your AoE abilities when there are twice more enemies than allies engaged in a fight judging by assist chains - is this "completely bonkers and busted"?

There is no more randomness than in the enemy PUG blob suddenly popping up when you fight organized warband and just steamrolling over you because they have x3 more people.

fyi RNG is short for Random Number Generator

And then I go back to my previus statement. Shouldn't numbers count for something? Consider thats it's a open world pvp game. There would be very little incentive to actually gather a warband, recruit guild members and have a thriving community to play with if you could just play the ORVR with with a 6man coz you get a bump by doing so. It would probobly never be so drastic that the 6man were able to compete with a 24man, but it's the idea that people who chose to not to utilize tols they have and/or being in a bad spot on the map should entitle you to being stronger. It just rewards bad decicition making.

My problem is not with eqiuping yourself with "long sticks" to get an advantage over "big numbers" but rather that the sticks suddenly grow or shrinks based on factors you can't controll.

[Sulorie]

The real problem with removing the effectiveness of bomb groups is that the effectiveness of healers is the same. Which is where the real imbalance comes into play when one side has significantly more numbers.

You dont need to buff the smaller force. Just debuff the larger force either through reduced healing taken or increase in damage taken. The larger force should still come out on top, they just might actually lose people.

It should also only be applied when numbers are considerably uneven. Meaning in at 18 v 24 or something similar nothing should be applied.

This doesn't work, because it leads to even more blobbing by the bigger side.
If 2 ppl have a 1vs1 and one has a debuff, just because this realm has more players in zone, then he brings more players next time to balance out the debuff.

[Grock]

And then I go back to my previus statement. Shouldn't numbers count for something? Consider thats it's a open world pvp game. There would be very little incentive to actually gather a warband, recruit guild members and have a thriving community to play with if you could just play the ORVR with with a 6man coz you get a bump by doing so. It would probobly never be so drastic that the 6man were able to compete with a 24man, but it's the idea that people who chose to not to utilize tols they have and/or being in a bad spot on the map should entitle you to being stronger. It just rewards bad decicition making.

My problem is not with eqiuping yourself with "long sticks" to get an advantage over "big numbers" but rather that the sticks suddenly grow or shrinks based on factors you can't controll.

We basically just return to OP's original question of whether "zerg busting" by smaller force should even be possible.
Of course it is better to rely on actual tactics to overcome larger force via wit and skill, rather than some obscure and questionable game mechanics, but thats not always possible and sometimes a handy crutch is better than unattainable ideal solution.
I get your pont and its totally valid, i just get a bit mad when people use emotional epithets like you did in original reply

Honestly the best way to handle the situation IMO would be through changing zones layout, adding new different objectives(not just BOs) especially dynamic ones that can appear and disappear in different places to force larger forces to split up and move more, thus giving smaller forces more ways to harass and amubush or secure some of said objectives for themselves.
When you are vastly outnumbered its a good idea to employ guerilla tactics, but in WAR there is just not enough potential for that, apparently.
But remaking entire maps and whole RvR mechanic is way out of scale for RoR or any similar project im afraid. Its like making an entire new game.

[adamthelc]

The real problem with removing the effectiveness of bomb groups is that the effectiveness of healers is the same. Which is where the real imbalance comes into play when one side has significantly more numbers.

You dont need to buff the smaller force. Just debuff the larger force either through reduced healing taken or increase in damage taken. The larger force should still come out on top, they just might actually lose people.

It should also only be applied when numbers are considerably uneven. Meaning in at 18 v 24 or something similar nothing should be applied.

This doesn't work, because it leads to even more blobbing by the bigger side.
If 2 ppl have a 1vs1 and one has a debuff, just because this realm has more players in zone, then he brings more players next time to balance out the debuff.

I was unclear and didnt mean based on the zone population. It would only work if they could do it based on a localized area. Meaning even if one side had 48 people in the zone and the other side only had 24. If all the 24 attacked a small group of 6 belonging to the 48, the 24 should get debuffed.

If you did something based on zone numbers you would force people to zerg.

[Lileldys]

Debuffing/Buffing either side based on population, or even localised buffs is a bad idea.

The quality of players in the current bomb guilds is pretty low, thus they're not having that same punch we saw guilds in T3 have, when 1 guild would log in and destroy whatever zerg was rolling the t3 zones.
I mean, CNTK for example, Healers are so spread and not blobbing in the bomb for protection. Their BWs are sitting back using RoF over annihilator/SE