Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Lileldys]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

[peterthepan3]

I've never seen a WE not using the carnage/treachery or WB spec in 6v6. Is SS really worth it, though?

[roadkillrobin]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

OYK is 100% kiss proc?
I tested Kisses with Kiss of Doom tactic yesterday and i definitly didn't get more then 1 proc of heals from it on any AoE attack. And when I tried toggle around the enemy targets I could never see more then 1 Kiss up at 3 enemies. But it's subject to more testing.

Also WH bullets does twice the damage Kisses do so you can't really aply the same standard for them.

I also think that Trial by Pain, Ruthless Assault should be revamp to hit 3 targets by Default and 9 with the tactic as these finishers just straight up sucks. This would give WE/WH some early AoE possibilities aswell.

[Spierron]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

SS is not viable

OYK is 100% kiss proc?
I tested Kisses with Kiss of Doom tactic yesterday and i definitly didn't get more then 1 proc of heals from it on any AoE attack. And when I tried toggle around the enemy targets I could never see more then 1 Kiss up at 3 enemies. But it's subject to more testing.

Also WH bullets does twice the damage Kisses do so you can't really aply the same standard for them.

I also think that Trial by Pain, Ruthless Assault should be revamp to hit 3 targets by Default and 9 with the tactic as these finishers just straight up sucks. This would give WE/WH some early AoE possibilities aswell.

icd on kiss so u can't apply KoD on 9 target with OYK
Trial by Pain is useless true but Ruthless Assault is a great finishers

if this is still planned, remember that Torq has some plan about WE (rework kiss, remove range on finisher, tactic pen armor...)

[Lileldys]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

OYK is 100% kiss proc?
I tested Kisses with Kiss of Doom tactic yesterday and i definitly didn't get more then 1 proc of heals from it on any AoE attack. And when I tried toggle around the enemy targets I could never see more then 1 Kiss up at 3 enemies. But it's subject to more testing.

Also WH bullets does twice the damage Kisses do so you can't really aply the same standard for them.

I also think that Trial by Pain, Ruthless Assault should be revamp to hit 3 targets by Default and 9 with the tactic as these finishers just straight up sucks. This would give WE/WH some early AoE possibilities aswell.

No just double 25% chance.

It'll be instresting to test if the change to WE kisses having an ICD is blocking AoE spread of H/D. Thats a massive nerf to WE which WH doesn't have to worry about.
I personally think this change was overkill and pretty much removed WE from any kind of Competetive play in the first place.

Those skills are fine, seeing that the channelled abilites are very forgiving with range on this game.

[Lileldys]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

SS is not viable

How so? It provides 50% AA Haste with 5 Finisher which brings its DPS overall higher than Witchbrew.

[roadkillrobin]

I think WH is in a fine spot for small scale, but thats because of the strength of BAL and easier access to PTF + SOD + AA Haste tact
To be competetive on a WE now, you have to go Sac Stab for the 50% AA Haste if you want to do any respectable ammount of damage. Then you have to make a choice between EoIP or Heal debuff, something WH doesn't need to do.

As for AOE, tested it yesterday, OYK/DragonGun is fine, and does spread bullets/kisses on all targets.
The Slice\Razor Stirke is still limited to 3 targets and a measly 25ft range. If you hit the damage again, increase this to 40ft + 9 targets I think they'd be fine, but you'd have to make sure WE doesn't get insane with it's Outgoing HD spam on order backlines, maybe simply make it not proc kisses on slice with tactic slotted.

OYK is 100% kiss proc?
I tested Kisses with Kiss of Doom tactic yesterday and i definitly didn't get more then 1 proc of heals from it on any AoE attack. And when I tried toggle around the enemy targets I could never see more then 1 Kiss up at 3 enemies. But it's subject to more testing.

Also WH bullets does twice the damage Kisses do so you can't really aply the same standard for them.

I also think that Trial by Pain, Ruthless Assault should be revamp to hit 3 targets by Default and 9 with the tactic as these finishers just straight up sucks. This would give WE/WH some early AoE possibilities aswell.

No just double 25% chance.

It'll be instresting to test if the change to WE kisses having an ICD is blocking AoE spread of H/D. Thats a massive nerf to WE which WH doesn't have to worry about.
I personally think this change was overkill and pretty much removed WE from any kind of Competetive play in the first place.

Those skills are fine, seeing that the channelled abilites are very forgiving with range on this game.

They are finishers so they have the increased finisher range of 30. But so does all other ST finishers.

All procs with ICD prevents spread of AoE. Same thing with WB, Flames of Ruin, Frozen Touch, Ere we go. Covenants, Prayer of R. Only thing still have it is Funnel Power and Hurting Time/HT mirror.
Even Riposte does.

[Ramasee]

Needs a new topic for all this wh/we talk. Gone WAY off OP