Should 6man vs 6man matter in balance discussions?

[Sanao]

He said top tier play. Nowhere did he say that top tier play is solely reserved for a 6 man. Try refuting the point he made rather than strawmanning it - this is something you appear to be doing frequently. Your entire reply to him is arguing a point he didn't even make.

[zumos2]

Well, the options (at least, the ones I can see) are:

1. Do not balance.
2. Balance for best possible play, which is relevant to very small % of players.
3. Balance for pug play, which will be relevant to most of the players. Which actually shouldn't be that hard- what is used in pug is mostly aoe (minimizing it to 1-2 skills per class + morals), + rest of class abilities which are used without class synergy. Then, assuming somebody comes with class synergy powerful enough to make a major impact, balance that.

You clearly dont understand balance. Balancing for top tier play = balancing for pugs. Its the only way of balance. You know what happens when you balance for "pug play"? Top player will find the OP stuff and completely reck the pug players who will then come to the forums to whine about balance which was created for them.

What will actually happen is that those top players will make a premade based on that OP stuff, followed by pug bringing 2 wbs and showing them it isn't so OP by smashing them in 0.1 sec. Because, after all, its the pug which got the actual numbers.

Also, read the actual post, specifically "assuming somebody comes with class synergy powerful enough to make a major impact, balance that".

Also, read other posts in this thread, 6v6 builds aren't even necessarily useful at wb lvl, while quite a few wb lvl builds are useless in 6v6. So how exactly are you planning to use 6v6 balance for wbs?

This is exactly why I dont want to enter the forums. Just read my post again. I never even mentioned 6v6, rather top tier vs pug play.

[Acidic]

Side track on 6v6 and warband but balancing should always be done on what the best the class can provide , not a balance on I want to be competitive but can’t be bothered to read how to play or too sleepy to hit the buttons correctly.
That is just common sense as balancing is based around class potential not how much individuals can realize from it.
Although for some reason Theorycrafting appears to be frowned upon in a few balance posts which is odd

[scatterthewinds]

The game is already balanced at warband level. Name me a class that doesn't have a role?
I'll just do order side fast because I'm more familiar with order at this stage:

KOBS: auras, hold the line, aoe CC, tank career stuff
IB: AOE snare, hold the line, oathfriend on slayers, tank career stuff
SM: Whispering winds, stat steal, some decent spirit aoe, hold the line, tank career stuff
Slayers: ID/Shatter Limbs, etc. AOE # provider. With IB and SM support is formidable.
Witchhunters: Tag team 2 or 3 on 1 on enemy healers. AOE stagger self punts that don't provide immunities.
White Lions: Fetch healers, can pounce on healers and help the witch hunters. They also have a bit of aoe in there.
Shadow Warriors: Not super familiar with this class but I believe AOE spam + pierce defenses works? Even if it doesnt it can be a pure AOE # provider. Also Leading shots.
BW: AOE # provider
Engineer: Magnet, Keg, etc
WP: Healer, Group cleanser, blessings (not familiar with this class)
RP: +Armor on crit tactic, initiative buff, Master Runes
AM: Morale pump, puddle, good all-round healer.


So every class has the same role. Its the warband leader's job to construct his warband effectively using the tools at his disposal, just like a premade picks and chooses from the class to come up with the best group possible. Neither warband or premade leaders always have the luxury of access to all the classes they want to have access to, so they have to make due with imperfect groups. So be it. No two classes are alike, nor they should they be. That is the beauty of the game. It is also impossible to quantify the value of these contributions relative to one another, because there are so many combinations possible. Maybe you can throw a couple of aoe abilities/tactics on the non-aoe heavy classes.

Why does 6 man matter? Because all the abilities mentioned above also work at 6 man level, and logically its much easier to scale balance up than it is to scale down. Whether you like it or not, this game is great from a social perspective because the 6 man party, not the individual (like it is in a game like TESO) was used as the functional unit around which all gameplay is balanced. Its why the most important abilities are party wide, not warband wide. Thing guard, aoe heal, auras, etc. Nothing major extends beyond the party.

There are also way more 6 man groups that the warband people give credit for. We just use the zergs for cover/bait/meatshields/zone locking. And you guys use us to carry you in the tough fights that make those zone locks possible. So its win-win for everybody.

[roadkillrobin]

The game is already balanced at warband level. Name me a class that doesn't have a role?

WH, WE, WL have about 0 use in Warbands.

Then we got classes that just gets outshined by other ones and arn't very desireble outside of maybe 1 such as SW, Magus, Engie, Black Guard, Iron Breakers, Archmage, Shaman.

[Fallenkezef]

Just remember any class should be balance by the average player not by what the best player can do with it.

[Druin]

Every class should work in both large scale RvR and small scale and not every spec.

It also makes 0 sense to me to balance around suboptimal play.

[scatterthewinds]

The game is already balanced at warband level. Name me a class that doesn't have a role?

WH, WE, WL have about 0 use in Warbands.

Then we got classes that just gets outshined by other ones and arn't very desireble outside of maybe 1 such as SW, Magus, Engie, Black Guard, Iron Breakers, Archmage, Shaman.

That is a 100% L2P issue. Send 2 WH stealth into backlines and AOE self punt + other cc + healdebuff on their healers. Its an extremely effective way of mitigating heals are the critical push moments.

[zumos2]

The game is already balanced at warband level. Name me a class that doesn't have a role?

WH, WE, WL have about 0 use in Warbands.

Then we got classes that just gets outshined by other ones and arn't very desireble outside of maybe 1 such as SW, Magus, Engie, Black Guard, Iron Breakers, Archmage, Shaman.

That is a 100% L2P issue. Send 2 WH stealth into backlines and AOE self punt + other cc + healdebuff on their healers. Its an extremely effective way of mitigating heals are the critical push moments.

Just lol

[scatterthewinds]

Care to explain? I dont understand here. Its not good to delay/mitigate healing in WB play? Or is that just a 6 man level thing?