The removal of Cleansing Wind

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Synacy
Posts: 148

The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#1 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:33 pm

Hello,

So I have tried to search up discussions of this on the forums but could not find ones that really pinpoint the topic rather than mention it. I understand Cleansing Wind was removed from the game but I don't know when this occurred or why. With the initial x2 xp week and another one being waived around, a lot of Archmages are going DPS, increasing the difficulty to kill them when they can DoT > Knock-back > Heal > Kite, with some classes having no ability to cleanse any of that. There are DoTs from Archmages and Engineers that last 10+ seconds, Engineers who have more and deal 250-350+ damage per second without being able to cleanse, so even if they die first, their DoTs usually last long enough to bring you to death even with the use of a potion.

Someone's argument the other day was that if they implemented Cleansing Wind back into the game that healers would be defenseless. To argue that is to rid of the fact that it ups a down. Where they were "defenseless" before the removal, the removal leaves Witch Elves (and other classes that I don't play) vulnerable to those longing and powerful DoTs. As for Witch Elves themselves, most are roamers and gankers, where Archmages serve to support their Warband or party leaving them to be in an area usually surrounded by allies. I am not aiming this curiosity at Archmages vs. Witch Elves specifically but for any other class that may experience this angst at the loss of Cleansing Wind.

The gear in-game doesn't yet allow 2-3 shot take-downs on some of these classes that can apply these powerful DoTs. Between kite specs that stack on max armor talismans and the inability to take down a player before the DoT wears off, the DoTs are probably the most problematic to deal with. We have the Subjugator/Smuggler capes that grant the ability to do so but that's a 30m timer, as opposed to Cleansing Wind having a 5 minute (3 minutes if you spec more RR into it) timer. For an ability to have more than 60s on a timer opposing the DoTs that mages and Engineers can cast at under 10s doesn't make sense to me.

In my simple mind, I see it simply as:
• The addition of Cleansing Wind = all players have the ability to use it if they want or need it & helps counter the ones without a proper defense against DoTs to have a chance to trigger an ability every 3-5 minutes at the expense of RR (10+ RR that could be contributed to other skills/stats), time (3 to 5 minutes max), and the use of another ability.
• The removal of Cleansing Wind = all players that have the ability to apply DoTs vs. the players that have no ability to defend against them leave the ones with no ability to defend at the tip of the blade.

• Notably, it's not that Cleansing Wind continuously rids of DoTs, it's a cooldown ability that you use when you estimate a good time to initiate the skill to rid of the current Curses, Hexes, and Ailments from you. After using the skill, and having removed such abilities, the ability sets on a CD and the opposing enemy can still apply DoTs/whatnot.

I could probably make this discussion look better if I took the time to back myself up with more numbers and maybe even a stat chart but if there was a poll to assume the top number of roamers on Order vs. Destruction, I would say WLs, WHs, and SWs, vs WEs, Marauders, and SHs, leaving most to the rest to roam in a premade (party) or a Warband, to include most/all healers and tanks, with mages as well. I myself believe Cleansing Wind was a fair-use skill in-game. I use WE vs AM/Engineer as the prime example because both have longing DoTs and an AM has a knock-back that can't be defended by a WE, and Engineers have a keg that causes WE to be unable to move/use any sort of ability or potion for x amount of time. With the DoTs that cannot be cleansed and such abilities to leave them at a kiting advantage, not having Cleansing Wind is a big downfall for the players that direly need it.

I'm open to criticism a/o feedback because of course I don't play all classes to fully understand so I would like to better understand how it would be, being in the shoes of another class against Cleansing Wind, but of course this is my view, and maybe somebody has a better explanation that topples mine as to why it should remain out of the game. Please do understand that I play strictly Destruction and maybe this can be perceived the same way of someone on Order who has an issue with Magus or Shaman. Thanks for reading!
Last edited by Synacy on Sat Apr 20, 2019 12:06 am, edited 5 times in total.
Yeah, I used to be that witch elf named Fun

Sulorie
Posts: 3865

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#2 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:48 pm

Try disrupt buff on your WE to counter knockback and dots.
Your whole wall of text is a showcase of a solo player struggling.
Dot damage is slow and weak compared to direct damage burst. It seems you want to remove its only strength, which is an environment without heals, where its full damage is effective.
Dying is no option.

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Telen
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Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#3 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:49 pm

Wouldn't make much difference. Dot classes will still wear you down if they get range. It will just take longer. The issue is that burst > all in rvr and dot classes have to get their dots up to reach dps. If they take even longer they become even more worthless. If a target can self cleanse them all when dok/wp morale is down then a dot classes is never going to kill anything in the short time that ca guard is stripped or during a cc/silence.

Tip: Use disrupt before you unstealth. Stabby stabby stabby. If they are smart they will save cc. A split second before disrupt is up, KD.
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drmordread
Posts: 786

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#4 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:32 pm

I do not understand, the fascination, with staying alive after making a kill as a stealth class. If you are solo, you know you will die. Why gimp your damage output?
Also on my WH, and I assume WE, there is the rank 1 morale that heals you for 900. Add to that a double heal pot, and you are healing for more than two ten second dots.

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Synacy
Posts: 148

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#5 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 pm

drmordread wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:32 pm
I do not understand, the fascination, with staying alive after making a kill as a stealth class. If you are solo, you know you will die. Why gimp your damage output?
Also on my WH, and I assume WE, there is the rank 1 morale that heals you for 900. Add to that a double heal pot, and you are healing for more than two ten second dots.
To answer both things.
a) The fascination with staying alive after a kill (as not just a stealth class but any roam rDPS) would be to avoid the 10% wound debuff (or more if not cleansed). Yes, Witch Elves can die a lot because this game has a primary source of zerg/Warband groups rather than roam players. To also avoid death is the opportunity to seek more kills within the area. Say you just finished a 1 on 1 with another player and won, but you see someone else run by and are sure you can take them on or just simply want to engage another fight. To die and run back from the Warcamp is tedious.

b) Witch Elves do not have a mirroring ability to heal for 900 for Morale 1.
Last edited by Synacy on Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, I used to be that witch elf named Fun

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Synacy
Posts: 148

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#6 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:00 pm

Telen wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:49 pm
Wouldn't make much difference. Dot classes will still wear you down if they get range. It will just take longer. The issue is that burst > all in rvr and dot classes have to get their dots up to reach dps. If they take even longer they become even more worthless. If a target can self cleanse them all when dok/wp morale is down then a dot classes is never going to kill anything in the short time that ca guard is stripped or during a cc/silence.

Tip: Use disrupt before you unstealth. Stabby stabby stabby. If they are smart they will save cc. A split second before disrupt is up, KD.
I mentioned something that somewhat counters what you're saying.

"*Notably, it's not that Cleansing Wind continuously rids of DoTs, it's a cooldown ability that you use when you estimate a good time to initiate the skill to rid of the current Curses, Hexes, and Ailments from you. After using the skill, and having removed such abilities, the ability sets on a CD and the opposing enemy can still apply DoTs/whatnot."

The above statement is to say that DoT classes can still kill. Cleansing Wind doesn't completely rid of all DoT abilities, it cleanses all current ones on the player and that's up for both offending players to decide when to use what. Most DoTs don't have a cooldown and can be applied one after another, where Cleansing Wind is a one-time-use until the next 3-5 minutes. To also say that most fights don't last that long whether it's a race of damage or an allying team aids one of the players.
Last edited by Synacy on Thu Apr 25, 2019 11:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yeah, I used to be that witch elf named Fun

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Synacy
Posts: 148

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#7 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:06 pm

Sulorie wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:48 pm
Try disrupt buff on your WE to counter knockback and dots.
Your whole wall of text is a showcase of a solo player struggling.
Dot damage is slow and weak compared to direct damage burst. It seems you want to remove its only strength, which is an environment without heals, where its full damage is effective.
DoT damage is not weak to Witch Elves in particular, but I can't say for other classes like Marauder or Choppa (or any mDPS on Order). There are counters to Cleansing Wind as well, as I don't know what the name of the abilities are called, a Rune Priest has a ranged instant-cast stun that completely disables player-movement and abilities that cannot be blocked unless timed using Elixir of the Cauldron, and Archmages also have a decent knock-back which apply under the same standards. It is a struggle for solo-based players but there are few solo players to the many zerg/Warband players. Yes, the mentioned statements in the original post are solo-specified but enabling Cleansing Wind grants the ability for everyone and not just roamers, and so everyone can find use in using Cleansing Wind besides roaming players.
Yeah, I used to be that witch elf named Fun

Panodil
Posts: 144

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#8 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:10 pm

maybe allow only stage 1
i miss cleansing winds and resolute :(
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Valarion
Posts: 182

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#9 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:17 pm

There were a number of reasons CW was removed:

1) It greatly impacted the damage potential of certain dot heavy classes and builds too greatly. Some of these classes could be shutdown (think magus, eng and ST dot spec BW)
2) It rewarded bad players playing bad (these are not my words, but the rationale of the community at the time)

While I understood their reasoning, I thought that a 10 RR skill for something that was already on a 5 minute CD was more than reasonable here. Perhaps the "upgrade" which reduced the CD to 2 min was a tad op, but I do wish there was a compromise here.

My greatest problem with all of this is it has very little to do with the CW nerf itself, but the slow and gradual increase of dps creep with fewer and fewer tools to deal with it.
Last edited by Valarion on Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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drmordread
Posts: 786

Re: The removal of Cleansing Wind

Post#10 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 10:19 pm

Synacy wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:56 pm
drmordread wrote:
Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:32 pm
I do not understand, the fascination, with staying alive after making a kill as a stealth class. If you are solo, you know you will die. Why gimp your damage output?
Also on my WH, and I assume WE, there is the rank 1 morale that heals you for 900. Add to that a double heal pot, and you are healing for more than two ten second dots.
To answer both things.
a) The fascination with staying alive after a kill (as not just a stealth class but any roam rDPS) would be to avoid the 10% wound debuff (or more if not cleansed). Yes, Witch Elves can die a lot because this game has a primary source of zerg/Warband groups rather than roam players. To also avoid death is the opportunity to seek more kills within the area. Say you just finished a 1 on 1 with another player and won, but you see someone else run by and are sure you can take them on or just simply want to engage another fight. To die and run back from the Warcamp is tedious.

b) Witch Elves do not have a mirroring ability to heal for 900 for Morale 1.
I suppose it is playstyle preference. I never go back to the same area, bad juju as in 6 man grps waiting for you.
And yes... WE's have the damage version of that morale. 900 Damage over 3 seconds.

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