SC almost dead

[TenTonHammer]

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank.

Excuse me but a tank in sc does the same job with either weapon - defend their teammates by guarding and CC enemies. To fulfill this job it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The key feature of shield tanks is HtL, which is not required in sc with the low player numbers you face there and the lack of aoe bombing.
Those tanks could spec defensive, use defensive armor sets and still count as "dps tank" due to their weapon, while they have 300 str?

I hope it doesn't only scan for weapon and tree, because there is no "dps tree" as you pick utility and not damage, as to deal damage you have to spec according in renown and wear offensive items.
Otherwise I think the approach to detect dps tanks is a wrong one.

kinda disagree with you here. BG have best kd with shiled, BO can buff group for resists and armor by blocking damage, SM can undefendable punt someone when block triggered. I don't remember all tank skills which is triggered by block.

Also most of this loldps 2h is usually drops fast as mdps, especially in pugs. Tank with shiled is useful in scs and his main job to carry glass canon and push with him. Loldps 2h usually focused on their dps, not defense, so sometimes guard damage could kill them even faster than guarded will die. Especially with you are guarding someone like slayer.

In proper premades shield is probably overkill, but in pugs 2h simply fear to guard anyone or don't care. So in pugs, especially with 1 or no healers at all shield is still useful. Usually i don't have guard as WE even if there 3 tanks in group, so why this loldps should count as tanks? There no point to spec def for scs if you don't want to support dps or hold BO, but 2h is a different story. So threat them as dps is a right thingy, imho.

5s KD with block and high hate vs consistent on demand 3s kd

What you lose in duration you gain in reliability with less prerequisites additionally equipping a 2H decreases the super punt cooldowns for classes like KOTBS and chosen and each has their own respective utilities

So you can’t blanket say SnB has hands down better in CC or utility than 2H

The rest of what you say applies to puggers which is irrelevant, there is a reason that 2H tanks were being run so much more in small scale 6 mans and scenarios

[Sulorie]

Excuse me but a tank in sc does the same job with either weapon - defend their teammates by guarding and CC enemies. To fulfill this job it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The key feature of shield tanks is HtL, which is not required in sc with the low player numbers you face there and the lack of aoe bombing.
Those tanks could spec defensive, use defensive armor sets and still count as "dps tank" due to their weapon, while they have 300 str?

I hope it doesn't only scan for weapon and tree, because there is no "dps tree" as you pick utility and not damage, as to deal damage you have to spec according in renown and wear offensive items.
Otherwise I think the approach to detect dps tanks is a wrong one.

kinda disagree with you here. BG have best kd with shiled, BO can buff group for resists and armor by blocking damage, SM can undefendable punt someone when block triggered. I don't remember all tank skills which is triggered by block.

Also most of this loldps 2h is usually drops fast as mdps, especially in pugs. Tank with shiled is useful in scs and his main job to carry glass canon and push with him. Loldps 2h usually focused on their dps, not defense, so sometimes guard damage could kill them even faster than guarded will die. Especially with you are guarding someone like slayer.

In proper premades shield is probably overkill, but in pugs 2h simply fear to guard anyone or don't care. So in pugs, especially with 1 or no healers at all shield is still useful. Usually i don't have guard as WE even if there 3 tanks in group, so why this loldps should count as tanks? There no point to spec def for scs if you don't want to support dps or hold BO, but 2h is a different story. So threat them as dps is a right thingy, imho.

Having bad tanks in sc is actually no argument.
We all know the lvl31 2h chosen with str talis (if any), dmg aura and duelist set.

This is like complaining about dps healer, who sometimes heal more than the heal spec ones, because those true healers might play very poorly. Picking the worst of the worst is no argument, same with "2h tanks melt more easily in a pug without healers". Some 2h tanks, who spec/gear properly are very tough, tough enough to do their job in any encounter outside of warband fights.
It doesn't even matter whether pug or premade, because the whole team performs worse without a healer.

Shield BG has longest KD but it is not on-demand. You can't move towards someone, KD and then punt them where you want. Especially not at the start of an engagement, if some enemy happens to be out of position. Furthermore, it is the only selling point for shield BG in sc, while you lose a plethora of other actually more important tools.

Same with BO, those bellows afaik don't stack with anything, so you usually take other bellows. This again only counts for sc without resist buffs in group, magical caster enemies and people too poor to buy armor pots. I wouldn't pick this as an argument, especially, when the war bellows don't require block.

[WeGotThis]

Spoiler:

Well i don't see much problem in SC's, yea the new buff for the loosing team is kind of a good idea,
which isnt optmal worked out (in my mind).

But we had even dropping numbers of SC's pop's months bevor that patch.

I see more than just 1 reason why people don't Que up for SC's..
But the biggest one i see in RvR. I remeber earlier times, when we had a full server with 1400/1400 player,
and with the bigger number over all the zerg was not that big, as it is now..

The changes in RvR made it more and more a "zerg" game, we have at EU Prime about 150-200 ppl on both sides,
sitting in 4-8WB's and camping WC or keep. So 300-400 people are just literally not able to Que for SC's,
because you cant while in warband.

Whole alliance with about 3-4 premade's left the game last year, or joining warbands.

You can't do anything as solo or small scale party against those mass.
If the zergs would split over multiple zones (2 or 3) more people would do 6 or 12 man, or duo, trio.
Then they would Que up in their sessions.
Yes i know, you can attack multiple zones, but that doesnt split the zerg when you need at least a warband to kill the keep lord in less than 30 minuts and therefor you mustn't have defenders.

Already getting to long, but the pool of players playing SC's and RvR is the same,
you cant magicaly fix SC's without change RvR

What's thing? Cannot split the zerg over multiple zones, then split it in this zone).

Yea... have you ever tried to split 300 people in Troll Country?
Well in TC it works actually, some are running supplies and the rest plays the Warcamp game

I'm soloing arround with lvl 20+ SM actually and i always get a concussion from facepalming when i see 3 warband's carring arround about 6 ressources. I mean, it fells like playing delivery Simulator

[bichka]

The rest of what you say applies to puggers which is irrelevant, there is a reason that 2H tanks were being run so much more in small scale 6 mans and scenarios

agree and disagree in same time
agree about pug tanks, but wait, if you are 6man already, you doesn't have problems with threatening 2h tanks as dps for scs, right? Counting them as dps is about partially filled parties or soloers. As i said before for proper 6man snb tank(s) is probably overkill.

About kd i disagree too, your realable 3s kd is not real threat against properly healed and/or guarded person. While 5s is pretty deadly. Not sure how long Cave-in duration for now, but in 4s time it was awesome and i really hated it on live.
And it's traded for questionable (in small scale) aoe snare and (main reason) loldps.

[bichka]

Same with BO, those bellows afaik don't stack with anything, so you usually take other bellows. This again only counts for sc without resist buffs in group, magical caster enemies and people too poor to buy armor pots. I wouldn't pick this as an argument, especially, when the war bellows don't require block.

sure it's doesn't stack, but it's gives like 340-360 resists and 940 armor. There no pots like this to cover it.
We are talking about pugs, sometimes they don't use even 660 armor pots. For proper 6man stat leeching is better, especially for debuffing initiative.
Also about resist buffs, they are not constant if it's not aura and can be removed.

Yes, it's doesn't require block, but with can't hit me it's procs almost instantly.

[mubbl]

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank.

Excuse me but a tank in sc does the same job with either weapon - defend their teammates by guarding and CC enemies. To fulfill this job it doesn't matter what weapon you use. The key feature of shield tanks is HtL, which is not required in sc with the low player numbers you face there and the lack of aoe bombing.
Those tanks could spec defensive, use defensive armor sets and still count as "dps tank" due to their weapon, while they have 300 str?

I hope it doesn't only scan for weapon and tree, because there is no "dps tree" as you pick utility and not damage, as to deal damage you have to spec according in renown and wear offensive items.
Otherwise I think the approach to detect dps tanks is a wrong one.

kinda disagree with you here. BG have best kd with shiled, BO can buff group for resists and armor by blocking damage, SM can undefendable punt someone when block triggered. I don't remember all tank skills which is triggered by block.

Also most of this loldps 2h is usually drops fast as mdps, especially in pugs. Tank with shiled is useful in scs and his main job to carry glass canon and push with him. Loldps 2h usually focused on their dps, not defense, so sometimes guard damage could kill them even faster than guarded will die. Especially with you are guarding someone like slayer.

In proper premades shield is probably overkill, but in pugs 2h simply fear to guard anyone or don't care. So in pugs, especially with 1 or no healers at all shield is still useful. Usually i don't have guard as WE even if there 3 tanks in group, so why this loldps should count as tanks? There no point to spec def for scs if you don't want to support dps or hold BO, but 2h is a different story. So threat them as dps is a right thingy, imho.
[/quote]

cool one spell on bg, which needs a block, which bg has/had the least of all tanks(little hint a full duration kd gives the target 50 sec imunnity so its a one hit wonder(; ). what about the supportive stuff a 2h bg could give? not mentioned....top
bo belows dont need a shield....armor of da greenest is nice but for the resis you would take choosen cause it is on demand and not 20%trigger on hit
sm, immunities?
dont blame thegame, blame the user...

i realy dont know what the average dps of a "real dps" is on this server but if a tank which brings 700-1,4k dmg per globalcooldown split on various cooldowns, including aa and good target picking...we need better dps players for sure

@devs
so when is matchmaking system coming?

[ufthakk]

BO can buff group for resists and armor by blocking damage

pls stop to claim BO buff has anything to do with block just cause it underlines your point.
thats the reason discussions ends in oblivion.
as i mentioned before imho its not about 2h tanks count as dps or the new domination, which apparently needs some more tweak.
at this point its all about fort. we will see what happens when city sieges get implemented.
but i think without an revison of rvr or at least a really good reason to do scs nothing will change.

[peterthepan3]

No, we as the team are developing the framework that the community can grow and progress with. The existing framework was frequently so one-sided people would straight up uninstall the game.

Let them uninstall then. If people are really uninstalling their game after dying in a PvP game, then are they really the sorts of people you want to be accommodating for in the first place?

The community at large is quite supportive, but it only takes a handful of players doing their worst to ruin the game for others. We simply can't have systems that reward you for doing so. We certainly aren't looking to cater to "everyone", at least not equally.

Not sure what to make of this...doing your 'worst' as in killing the enemy, over and over again? Doing your 'worst' as in forcing people to uninstall (apparently) instead of learning how to play, or adapting?

The last part of this is a bit disheartening, and I think I already know which part of the community you don't really want to cater to. Sad, to be honest.

Regarding 2h tanks, I've already addressed the matchmaking mechanic in another thread. They fill significantly different roles than a def tank.

They provide Guard, they provide Challenge, they provide CC, they provide snares, they provide tank Morales...2h tanks are still tanks, man - signed literally every tank player who has a clue. It would make a world of difference for the SC manager if they were assigned as such, so why not try it out and see?

[flintboth]

It is not because Fortresses are a new content and that makes them more attractive (they are not really fun, I have play only 4 or 5 Fortress), it is just because all players know : to survive in PvP and have a chance to have a decent scenario (in all small scale fights, 6v6, 1v1...) you MUST HAVE the last over powered gear (= invader set today).
So most of us spend all theirs play time to win the Invader set and they are right in theirs choice.

Play the scenarios and be farmed by high level characters high geared (grouped or not grouped) don't give any fun and any gear ( and no more medaillons to have a good weapon).
On the RvR battlefield the differences between characters (level + gears) become less decisive for the outcome of the battle.
This is why the RvR is currently more frequented , this is a place really really more fun and which seems more justly balanced than the scenarios (due to the big numbers of the players, small scales highlights the importance of the gear, this is why (for me) there is a rejection of scenarios from the players today).

When Capital instance will be released, be sure, we will all go to test and play the newest attractive place.
But the only reason who make it more frequented every day (like Frtresses today) will be for the "gear reason" only (the "Capital set" will attract every single one of us , because of the reasons I have mentioned above, the power it give and scenarios will be empties).

[peterthepan3]

Arguments re needing BIS gear to achieve success in SC are absolutely false: you can farm SC with ease even if you're only rocking Conq/Dom gear (both of which are easy to acquire).

Good players will kill bad players regardless of whether or not they have the top, top, top BIS gear. We were gearing up Korze on his lowbie WL, with a lowbie KOBS, too, and still raking in the wins versus RR80+ players; it's all about how you play.