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SC almost dead

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Onemantankwall
Posts: 488

Re: SC almost dead

Post#41 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:06 pm

Alfa1986 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:37 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm
Alfa1986 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:22 am
Yesterday I played scs on my bw and, for the sake of interest, I invited a healer in the party through / 5, and indeed the scs did one after another, the maximum wait was min 10, mostly about 5 minutes. Apparently the issue is in the broken class que sc system, which ignores part of the solo players que in pop, and perhaps this was due to the fact that it was just Sunday evening, idk, but as possible desition need looking for a healer for more often sc. so, what about the test scenario map without healers?)
This is very much intended. Solo queue is bottom priority, queue depth will try to make 2-2-2 groups. If you had 8 healers in queue and 2 DPS, it would pick up both the DPS, the only bias is to make balanced groups. Queues will always start if 6 players on each team can be found. It fills the most balanced scens first. There isn't a line that you wait in, the queue refreshes every 5 minutes and randomly selects again using the same criteria.

I'm sure we've explained this before.

If you're sitting in queue for a long time, ask a healer or proper tank to queue with you and a pop becomes much more likely. Don't solo if you have the option not to. Even a duo of DPS will have better chances for getting a scen pop.
do I understand correctly that the first ones in the priority for joining sc are premades, they are followed by incomplete groups, and already below are solo? But what about the sorting of incomplete groups? After all, groups can consist of 5-4-3-2 people, I ask this to understand what composition has the greatest chance of joining to scs? Let's say there is a group (4ppl)of 3 DPS and 1 tank / healer, and a group of 2 DPS or 1 DPS and 1tank/healer, which one has more chance?
Would depend on who else is queing. 3rd group would prob get priority over rest because it covers all 3 archtypes that the mechanic is looking for if no heals are queing but tanks are 2nd would pop. if heals are queing but no tanks first grp would be priority neither will pop has fast as holy trinity grp tho

Might i add if enemy side doesnt meet the 2-2-2 ur stuckk waiting the 5 mins timer with them for them to just be thrown in with what they got
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Sulorie
Posts: 4787

Re: SC almost dead

Post#42 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:16 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm

This is very much intended. Solo queue is bottom priority, queue depth will try to make 2-2-2 groups. If you had 8 healers in queue and 2 DPS, it would pick up both the DPS, the only bias is to make balanced groups. Queues will always start if 6 players on each team can be found. It fills the most balanced scens first. There isn't a line that you wait in, the queue refreshes every 5 minutes and randomly selects again using the same criteria.

I'm sure we've explained this before.
No, you did not explain this anytime between now and the time you made the change in the first place. It was only said, that a new sc might pop every 5 min but not that the queue is shuffled again with the result, that some players almost never get a pop.

People were only guessing and noticing, that solo queue out of the sudden is horrible compared to grp queue.

Maybe every player should get a one-time popup on login, to tell them how to queue properly for sc as people are in queue for ages without a pop and the responses in /5 are rare at best. :)
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orfeask
Posts: 46

Re: SC almost dead

Post#43 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm
Alfa1986 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:22 am
Yesterday I played scs on my bw and, for the sake of interest, I invited a healer in the party through / 5, and indeed the scs did one after another, the maximum wait was min 10, mostly about 5 minutes. Apparently the issue is in the broken class que sc system, which ignores part of the solo players que in pop, and perhaps this was due to the fact that it was just Sunday evening, idk, but as possible desition need looking for a healer for more often sc. so, what about the test scenario map without healers?)
This is very much intended. Solo queue is bottom priority, queue depth will try to make 2-2-2 groups. If you had 8 healers in queue and 2 DPS, it would pick up both the DPS, the only bias is to make balanced groups. Queues will always start if 6 players on each team can be found. It fills the most balanced scens first. There isn't a line that you wait in, the queue refreshes every 5 minutes and randomly selects again using the same criteria.

I'm sure we've explained this before.

If you're sitting in queue for a long time, ask a healer or proper tank to queue with you and a pop becomes much more likely. Don't solo if you have the option not to. Even a duo of DPS will have better chances for getting a scen pop.
Might as well remove the "Join Solo" option in the scenario queue since thats how the scenario manager deal with matchmaking, I am pretty sure there would be no difference with what we have now.

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wargrimnir
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Re: SC almost dead

Post#44 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:44 pm

orfeask wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm
Alfa1986 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 4:22 am
Yesterday I played scs on my bw and, for the sake of interest, I invited a healer in the party through / 5, and indeed the scs did one after another, the maximum wait was min 10, mostly about 5 minutes. Apparently the issue is in the broken class que sc system, which ignores part of the solo players que in pop, and perhaps this was due to the fact that it was just Sunday evening, idk, but as possible desition need looking for a healer for more often sc. so, what about the test scenario map without healers?)
This is very much intended. Solo queue is bottom priority, queue depth will try to make 2-2-2 groups. If you had 8 healers in queue and 2 DPS, it would pick up both the DPS, the only bias is to make balanced groups. Queues will always start if 6 players on each team can be found. It fills the most balanced scens first. There isn't a line that you wait in, the queue refreshes every 5 minutes and randomly selects again using the same criteria.

I'm sure we've explained this before.

If you're sitting in queue for a long time, ask a healer or proper tank to queue with you and a pop becomes much more likely. Don't solo if you have the option not to. Even a duo of DPS will have better chances for getting a scen pop.
Might as well remove the "Join Solo" option in the scenario queue since thats how the scenario manager deal with matchmaking, I am pretty sure there would be no difference with what we have now.
Personal experience on my part as a solo DPS hasn't been nearly as drastic. Some change? Yes, of course. Crippling the entire scenario scene? Not quite, but we will keep trying apparently.

Most statements I see like this I assume are wildly exaggerated to make a point. Which is unfortunate as the further something seems from reality, the less credence I give both the post and over time, the poster. Provided the increasing dramatics continue over time, some people are easy to outright ignore despite what good points they might make. It's just not productive to get involved with them in a serious matter as you can't trust their observations to be representative of reality, instead being a skewed mess of emotions and drama.
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Yaliskah
King of Nothing
Posts: 1926

Re: SC almost dead

Post#45 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:46 pm

Just trolling but, on live, scenarios were pretty rare and completely unbalanced too, they have obviously not done any fix in 5 years. This said.. You have high expectations from a total non professional team, 40x smaller to solve it :), I really thank you for the respect you seems to have Iin our skills, but maybe you should keep in mind that no one should be more royalist than the king..

This said, like almost everything in this Huge Work in progress mess, we have to find solution, test, change, move on, come back, test, and maybe some day it will be even worst!...

rulke32
Posts: 6

Re: SC almost dead

Post#46 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:08 pm

Yaliskah wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:46 pm
Just trolling but, on live, scenarios were pretty rare and completely unbalanced too, they have obviously not done any fix in 5 years. This said.. You have high expectations from a total non professional team, 40x smaller to solve it :), I really thank you for the respect you seems to have Iin our skills, but maybe you should keep in mind that no one should be more royalist than the king..

This said, like almost everything in this Huge Work in progress mess, we have to find solution, test, change, move on, come back, test, and maybe some day it will be even worst!...
TBH i think you guys already did a great job with ideas like "pug" sc and a sc system that tries to put certain classes together to build a "solid" group. With that sc are mostly already much more fun than they where on life.

I see the problem more in the "incentive" to play sc. Since you get the best weapons in pve and mostly the better sets you dont "need" to play sc anymore. For example i dont understand why you put so many "best" rewards in pve dungeons, sets, weapons, jewels,
So if there would be for example still the best weapons for sc emblems the pool of people who play scs would be much higher and that would also help to balance sc because the system has more players .
There could be also than a full pug sc even without duo and when you then also lower the amount of different maps and it happens that there are several sc from the same map running parallel it would prevent a bit that people just que toghter without beeing in a grp etc.

I know that all this still need to be done it will not magical appears. But i think you understand what i try to say.

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wargrimnir
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Posts: 6447
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Re: SC almost dead

Post#47 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:19 pm

rulke32 wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:08 pm
Yaliskah wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:46 pm
Just trolling but, on live, scenarios were pretty rare and completely unbalanced too, they have obviously not done any fix in 5 years. This said.. You have high expectations from a total non professional team, 40x smaller to solve it :), I really thank you for the respect you seems to have Iin our skills, but maybe you should keep in mind that no one should be more royalist than the king..

This said, like almost everything in this Huge Work in progress mess, we have to find solution, test, change, move on, come back, test, and maybe some day it will be even worst!...
T
BH i think you guys already did a great job with ideas like "pug" sc and a sc system that tries to put certain classes together to build a "solid" group. With that sc are mostly already much more fun than they where on life.

I see the problem more in the "incentive" to play sc. Since you get the best weapons in pve and mostly the better sets you dont "need" to play sc anymore. For example i dont understand why you put so many "best" rewards in pve dungeons, sets, weapons, jewels,
So if there would be for example still the best weapons for sc emblems the pool of people who play scs would be much higher and that would also help to balance sc because the system has more players .
There could be also than a full pug sc even without duo and when you then also lower the amount of different maps and it happens that there are several sc from the same map running parallel it would prevent a bit that people just que toghter without beeing in a grp etc.

I know that all this still need to be done it will not magical appears. But i think you understand what i try to say.
This is a content issue. The power gap for the current brackets is already very wide. When we have another tier of content available you will have more gear to go with it. Current scens/rewards are pretty much locked in at this point, hence refinement of systems. If anything, we may add additional rewards that are similar on the power scale, but if we've suddenly turned into a PVE server simply because loot there is nice, I would be mildly disappointed.
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orfeask
Posts: 46

Re: SC almost dead

Post#48 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:37 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:44 pm
orfeask wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:48 pm


This is very much intended. Solo queue is bottom priority, queue depth will try to make 2-2-2 groups. If you had 8 healers in queue and 2 DPS, it would pick up both the DPS, the only bias is to make balanced groups. Queues will always start if 6 players on each team can be found. It fills the most balanced scens first. There isn't a line that you wait in, the queue refreshes every 5 minutes and randomly selects again using the same criteria.

I'm sure we've explained this before.

If you're sitting in queue for a long time, ask a healer or proper tank to queue with you and a pop becomes much more likely. Don't solo if you have the option not to. Even a duo of DPS will have better chances for getting a scen pop.
Might as well remove the "Join Solo" option in the scenario queue since thats how the scenario manager deal with matchmaking, I am pretty sure there would be no difference with what we have now.
Personal experience on my part as a solo DPS hasn't been nearly as drastic. Some change? Yes, of course. Crippling the entire scenario scene? Not quite, but we will keep trying apparently.

Most statements I see like this I assume are wildly exaggerated to make a point. Which is unfortunate as the further something seems from reality, the less credence I give both the post and over time, the poster. Provided the increasing dramatics continue over time, some people are easy to outright ignore despite what good points they might make. It's just not productive to get involved with them in a serious matter as you can't trust their observations to be representative of reality, instead being a skewed mess of emotions and drama.
Unrelated but, how does the matchmaker work for the pug sc ? Does it give low priority to solos and high priority to groups (2 people in this case)?

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wargrimnir
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Re: SC almost dead

Post#49 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:07 pm

orfeask wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 6:37 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:44 pm
orfeask wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:35 pm

Might as well remove the "Join Solo" option in the scenario queue since thats how the scenario manager deal with matchmaking, I am pretty sure there would be no difference with what we have now.
Personal experience on my part as a solo DPS hasn't been nearly as drastic. Some change? Yes, of course. Crippling the entire scenario scene? Not quite, but we will keep trying apparently.

Most statements I see like this I assume are wildly exaggerated to make a point. Which is unfortunate as the further something seems from reality, the less credence I give both the post and over time, the poster. Provided the increasing dramatics continue over time, some people are easy to outright ignore despite what good points they might make. It's just not productive to get involved with them in a serious matter as you can't trust their observations to be representative of reality, instead being a skewed mess of emotions and drama.
Unrelated but, how does the matchmaker work for the pug sc ? Does it give low priority to solos and high priority to groups (2 people in this case)?
Full groups > add to scen pool
Partial groups > add to scen pool
Solo > check archetype > fill gaps > begin scen

Check again until less than 6 queued on either side. It won't start a 5v6 for example.

Ideally, most people in the queue get used every 5 minutes.
If one realm is stomping the other it could get hung up by 5v28 for example and those 28 will feel no pops at all. This isn't new however, it always worked that way. If the other side doesn't queue, no one plays.
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Alfa1986
Posts: 394

Re: SC almost dead

Post#50 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:20 pm

perhaps I ll say a slightly different opinion, but my point is that an attempt to strictly regulate and make a clear framework in the scenarios will lead to full fail. in fact, people want just good interesting fights (and it doesn’t matter 2 tanks vs 2 healers, or 4 dps vs 4 dps), and not hard concrete rails mounted in concrete with rigid unshakable rules, and the point here is not at all in the rewards. There are already serious problems associated with both the selection system for players in the sc and domination. Scenarios are not the part of the game that needs to be tightly regulated, many people ask u to make not just scenarios with unbalanced groups of 2 + 2 + 2 !, but generally scenarios without healers or 1*1,2*2,3*3 arenas. Indeed 2+2+2 not really only one work combination, 4 good dps which works on one target + 2 can burn it very simple, sure about that.

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