Another complaint about domination

[Aethilmar]

How is it not penalizing when the scenario ends before you can run the component (or do whatever other objective e.g. cap both crypts) to get the full 500 points because the other side launches themselves into you repeatedly? Talk about cheesing things ... this is a "valid" strategy to deny a superior team from getting their full emblems.

All I do is PUG. I do not run in premades except when I "accidentally" fall into a 4-5 man group that shows up so I have seen how this works from both sides and it is crap. It stops the competition before it starts. It denies the losing side a chance to try to "figure it out" against a stronger force. It teaches players to just quit and hope for the next one instead of learning to fight.

You are so afraid of "pugstomping" that you are basically willing to sacrifice the game mode. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[anarchypark]

consider it as reward scaling system.
depend on opponent's skills.

don't you think reward should be minimal for stomping noobs?
or against no heals. or no tanks.

it seems everybody agree on that it's not fun killing weak enemy.
but expect full reward from no fun.

you can still get full reward from close competitions.

Why do you care if people are getting a few more emblems a scenario? It is an unnecessary control that is fun for no one expect maybe someone who just enjoys ruining other peoples day.

People were getting full rewards for a while and it wasnt hurting anyone.

I've tried to be civil, but the domination system is terrible. Let the clock tick down normally and let the people who have no chance sit in there spawn for the full duration while the better side does their full objective routine.

Penalizing people for being better than the other side in a PvP heavy game is one of the most backwards ass things I have ever heard of.

I get it though. Lots of people claim to like PvP, but arent very good and cant handle losing. So if you dont cater to those people they start to leave. Those kind of moves are better for the population, but make the game worse.

college league basketball team playing against children and getting same reward as top tier, is it ok to you?
they'll stay away from big league and searching for easy win. what a losers.
pick your own size.

[Dabbart]

How about some idea's to conteract the perceived issues rather than "this sucks BLAH!"?

• For instance, increase the time before Dom check is issued. (I believe this was already done)

• If more than X players join the SC, reset Dom numbers(ie, SC starts 8v6, the 6 get roflsmashed, then the SC fills to 12v12, reset the Dom counter).

• Maybe increase points per capture(or per BO) when Dom is active(to add incentive for teams to break off the fight and push capture/BO which in turn allows the Dom'd team a chance to push out and accomplish something)

• Add RR to part running SCs, which is a set-amount that is evenly shared amongst all allies within Xft of the turn-in location(distance would be different from SC to SC).

• Add a Small RR tick for holding BOs. This would be within Xft of the BO it's self(distance would be different from SC to SC).

• Increase pts per kill and RR per kill for the team being dominated. Get out and fight! Stop AFKing.

• Adjust points per cap/BO for certain SCs. I am thinking KE in particular which almost never ends with 500pts in my recent experience. But includes the 3(?) Bomb running SCs as well.

Note, I dislike the Dom mechanic. Same as I dislike Malus. But I can't claim there isn't a reason for it. So, removal isn't an option w/o solving the reasons for them, which leaves us with attempting to tweak the systems so that they function without "killing gameplay".

But, to be fair.. Simply shouting "This Sucks!" is certainly easier.

[Aethilmar]

How about some idea's to conteract the perceived issues rather than "this sucks BLAH!"?

I very clearly stated to revert it or get rid of it because for everything "good" it does (discourage "pugstomping") it does multiple things bad. There is no "blah" in my posts.

But if you want "constructive" criticism, lets get down to first principles. This game is about PvP progression through gearing. Which means it is about resource collection in an efficient manner. There are two kinds of resources in scenarios: renown and emblems. (Note you can make an argument that harvesting tears is another kind of resource but that is not measurable so will ignore for now).

Presumably it is "OK" to collect the emblems at a full rate since if it wasn't they obvious answer is to nerf the number of emblems awarded. In fact the game developers have gone the other direction trying to incentivize people to complete the scenarios by offering more emblems.

However, for long-time players emblems are mostly useless. And even for newer ones they may not be as useful due to the proliferation of PvE gear. So this probably helped in aggregate but not for specific groups of "pugstompers".

So that leaves us renown ... and renown farming was definitely a thing. Teams would actively avoid winning just to collect max renown inside of a SC. Given that, it would would be reasonable to assume that if you have to do something then capping the max amount of achievable renown more tightly to the other team's performance (as opposed to just their RR) would be a possible solution. I'm sure it would also have unintended downsides as does most attempts to regulate human behavior.

That said, I think "pugstomping" was an overstated problem and attempts to control it have fixed 10% of the matches while messing up the other 90% (yes those are my made up numbers). It certainly has taught people to embrace giving up, which is a shame as there is already a significant portion of people who will take any opportunity quit in the face of adversity. Why they even play PvP games I don't know but no point in catering to them either.

As a dedicated "Pugger" some of my best memories of WAR and RoR are finding a way to get little bits of revenge on the "pugstompers" and even turn the tables on them.

[Dabbart]

^^^ That's actually a whole lot of BLAH, that has nothing to do with anything other than; your opinion, what you think, based on your game-play perspective, and to just flat remove Dom. This sucks BLAH. The BLAH being the ramble portion of your post.

Also I wasn't actually targeting you with my initial post, more the constant stream of posts on this forum that largely offer nothing useful. Other than, "this sucks, BLAH".

Note, I aint perfect. I bitch and moan with the rest of 'em. But... At least try to be constructive. Offer an alternative, not an inner monologue. You used the word "constructive" but didn't offer anything...

[Flavorburst]

consider it as reward scaling system.
depend on opponent's skills.

don't you think reward should be minimal for stomping noobs?
or against no heals. or no tanks.

it seems everybody agree on that it's not fun killing weak enemy.
but expect full reward from no fun.

you can still get full reward from close competitions.

Why do you care if people are getting a few more emblems a scenario? It is an unnecessary control that is fun for no one expect maybe someone who just enjoys ruining other peoples day.

People were getting full rewards for a while and it wasnt hurting anyone.

I've tried to be civil, but the domination system is terrible. Let the clock tick down normally and let the people who have no chance sit in there spawn for the full duration while the better side does their full objective routine.

Penalizing people for being better than the other side in a PvP heavy game is one of the most backwards ass things I have ever heard of.

I get it though. Lots of people claim to like PvP, but arent very good and cant handle losing. So if you dont cater to those people they start to leave. Those kind of moves are better for the population, but make the game worse.

college league basketball team playing against children and getting same reward as top tier, is it ok to you?
they'll stay away from big league and searching for easy win. what a losers.
pick your own size.

What I find odd is that you automatically think that everything stomping the daylights out of you is a premade.

[anarchypark]

What I find odd is that you automatically think that everything stomping the daylights out of you is a premade.

premade or 2-2-2 pug, it doesn't matter who's stomping noobs.
nobody cares 'who' part.

domination is to end unfair match quickly.
cuz there's no ladder system.
vet and noobs are mixed.
( which is fine IMO, u can learn from better )

if anyone felt they're punished maybe cuz they were too accustomed to farm noobs.

[anarchypark]

What I find odd is that you automatically think that everything stomping the daylights out of you is a premade.

premade or 2-2-2 pug, it doesn't matter who's stomping noobs.
nobody cares 'who' part.

domination is to end unfair match quickly.
cuz there's no ladder system.
vet and noobs are mixed.
( which is fine IMO, u can learn from better )

if anyone felt they're punished maybe cuz they were too accustomed to farm noobs.

Blind algorithm versus player agency.

Picture the following scenario:
One premade and one full pug per side.
Both premades play the game and are roughly evenly matched.
One side's pug acts like pugs and essentially throws the match - refusing to play the objective/suiciding, eventually triggering domination.

Meaning between 2 and 12 players potentially have their fun ruined, because between 1(!) and 12 players choose to give their best npc impression.

Note: You can scale 'premade' however you want.

The lines are too blurry for a blind algorithm.

Edit: The same works in reverse, naturally. E.g.: a single excellent BW/Sorc (or any class) meets pugs and causes a bloodbath, in spite of the match being all-in-all playable ~ domination might still kick in and end the scenario. Now, the algorithm penalizes the single player for essentially 1vX with extras, and wastes everyone's time by throwing them back into the queue - or prolongs queues by emptying the playerpool (I've caught myself calling it a day after multiple 30min queues that yielded 2min of PvP).

make that theory into reality and provide evidence of failed trigger to the devs.
I'm sure they'll fine tuning domination trigger.

until then, if domination triggered in your example, it's still 1 sided SC.
you even mentioned noobs keep dying or not playing objectives.
NOOBS!

either i was on noob side or winning side,
I want that SC end asap.
and find another SC hoping for better one.
why prolong misery?
unless you wanna keep farming noobs.

[Akalukz]

Everyone says they want good fights...but whine when they are done with bad fights "quicker" and get "less" rewards from bad fights. Make up your mind people... do you want good fights with good rewards or easy fights with good rewards?

Maybe if the scenario match maker wasn't so slow, people wouldn't complain as much as when one scenario ends thru domination another one starts promptly. Maybe with Domination working it's time to get rid of the match making requirements.

[Sulorie]

Maybe if the scenario match maker wasn't so slow, people wouldn't complain as much as when one scenario ends thru domination another one starts promptly. Maybe with Domination working it's time to get rid of the match making requirements.

The situation you mention here is the core problem.
With MM so slow for everyone without a full 6man, SC ending too fast due to domination result in 2 effects. You barely get a pop and when you get one, the sc is ending in a few minutes. The idle time between sc is increased while the active playtime is reduced in sc.
And even in a full grp, the sc pops might be faster but it is even more likely to trigger domination.

If only the new matchmaking improved the class setups in sc but it only brought extended queue times with the same imbalanced groups are before.