Malus

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orfeask
Posts: 41

Re: Malus

Post#11 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:56 pm

orillah wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:50 pm
but you can still gain gear and bags normally?
Malus only affects rr from kills as far as I know.

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Thickfreak
Posts: 7

Re: Malus

Post#12 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:02 pm

From what I've seen Malus doesn't do anything to curb the amount of people zerging one side. It actually makes the side that is already zerging more inclined to zerg out the rest of the zone. Because there is no point to solo roam with Malus, since you only gain 1 rr for kills. So most will just join the zerg. Which negates any use of AAO for the opposing realm since nobody of the enemy realm is moving around solo or small scale to kill.

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Natherul
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Re: Malus

Post#13 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 pm

Manatikik wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 pm
Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:57 am
wonshot wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 10:23 am
Wasnt there a dev comment somewhere saying something along the lines of:

"we felt like Malus was needed to adress "X" problem. if you guys can come up with a better solution to solving "X" and replacing Malus, we are all ears"

I could be wrong though.
Not actual quote but contents is right

Do you guys actually feel like Malus addresses a problem or just punishes players for playing their preferred faction?
It does address a problem but its not as effective as we´d hope, nor is it a good system but having a system that actively encourages (by rewarding) players to jump from underdog to winning side and then crush weaker side over and over will only cause issue to be bigger over time. Hence we would be eager to find another solution to the issue.
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Manatikik
Posts: 846

Re: Malus

Post#14 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:48 pm

Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 pm
Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:57 am


Not actual quote but contents is right

Do you guys actually feel like Malus addresses a problem or just punishes players for playing their preferred faction?
It does address a problem but its not as effective as we´d hope, nor is it a good system but having a system that actively encourages (by rewarding) players to jump from underdog to winning side and then crush weaker side over and over will only cause issue to be bigger over time. Hence we would be eager to find another solution to the issue.

Do you guys still hold the viewpoint that you’d rather people log off due to malus than continue to populate the overpopulated realm during these lower population times? I’m just curious how you guys are actively looking at Malus or are we just stuck with it because it made it this far?
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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1669

Re: Malus

Post#15 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:04 pm

Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 pm
Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:57 am


Not actual quote but contents is right

Do you guys actually feel like Malus addresses a problem or just punishes players for playing their preferred faction?
It does address a problem but its not as effective as we´d hope, nor is it a good system but having a system that actively encourages (by rewarding) players to jump from underdog to winning side and then crush weaker side over and over will only cause issue to be bigger over time. Hence we would be eager to find another solution to the issue.
The malus actively causes people to just log out from the game, and it has over the last 10 months or so, failed to prevent zerg side from just doing the usual steamrolling. Maybe they get less renown, maybe its abysmal difference - you will get renown from taking keeps that are barely defended and just capping BOs and running sups you still earn medals and gain bag rolls.
Which means the bigger side keeps doing the usual steamrolling, underdog tries something, gets overrun as usual... and some people seeing the malus decide they would rather log out and play something else.
In fact, removing incentives from killing only results in less pvp, more flag hugging, more empty keep capping because no point in doing anything else, so it ends up reinforcing the blob up and zerg on behaviour.
It's ruining the pvp without actively helping the campaign at all.

You need some real incentives to play underdog, some of us have already several +80 chars so few extra renown or 10000 officers medals more doesn't really matter.

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wonshot
Posts: 378

Re: Malus

Post#16 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:43 pm

Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:57 am
Not actual quote but contents is right
I am not sure how many players actually knew that the dev-team even had this stand on the Malus matter.

Instead of just letting the situation be, if both the devteam and playerbase both are not very happy with this aspect, why not attempt to collect some ideas, instead of the usual just silence followed by once in a while angry unproductive whine post that will eventually follow.

This is just a mere suggestion;

Just like there is a post asking for help with the PQs and collecting community help, do the same on subjects that actually "matter" (sorry for downplaying PQs but compared to Malus, the latter is way more important to a much larger portion)

So for example, if the stand from the devs is that Malus was needed to deal with "X" come out in an open attempt to collect ideas and inspiration.

Could be something like this:
Hey Community, Dev-team here!
Today we would like to ask for your assistance in finding an alternative to Malus (followed by descibtion of what Malus exactly is) We understand the issues Malus brings along with it, but we still need to have a system in place to tacle "X" (then explain exactly what the issue is you want the suggestions to tactle)

Any suggestions or comments that are not adressing the topic will be moderated following the forum rules. Good ideas and suggestions are more than welcome, but keep in mind that as a developer we have to take many factors into concideration and dont take it personal if your suggestions dont get implimented. Developers and players usually see things differently, because of how easily aspects get abused or misused.
Let the community throw ideas at the issue. Sure some will be whine, some will be very useless and exploitable. Maybe some idea might come out of it, but in the end if we cant come up with a better solution atleast we can see why Malus is still here.
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CountTalabecland
Posts: 338

Re: Malus

Post#17 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:04 pm

Forts really made the malus pointless. No matter how one sided the regular zones are, people tend to join up for fort siege/defense. So every zergling knows that an Invader bag, 6 medals, and 30k renown and a decent fight are waiting for them if they can keep the zerg going the whole time.

In short, why go play underdog now when I can cash in on the fort sieges by simply keeping on zerging?
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Natherul
Lead Developer
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Re: Malus

Post#18 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:32 pm

Manatikik wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:48 pm
Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 1:27 pm
Manatikik wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 12:29 pm



Do you guys actually feel like Malus addresses a problem or just punishes players for playing their preferred faction?
It does address a problem but its not as effective as we´d hope, nor is it a good system but having a system that actively encourages (by rewarding) players to jump from underdog to winning side and then crush weaker side over and over will only cause issue to be bigger over time. Hence we would be eager to find another solution to the issue.

Do you guys still hold the viewpoint that you’d rather people log off due to malus than continue to populate the overpopulated realm during these lower population times? I’m just curious how you guys are actively looking at Malus or are we just stuck with it because it made it this far?
I can only speak for myself on this one without speaking to the rest of the leads but I still hold that viewpoint. Else we would degenerate to a case where there is 0 PvP because close to everyone is on the same realm and still get massive rewards from it. Thats also tbf a glaring issue with how loot and other rewards are given on AoR and RoR, rewarding people in this manner is just bad. It would be akin to running SCs with a full team on one side and 2 players on the other and expect the SC to continue uninterrupted with full rewards for the team that outnumbers the other.
wonshot wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 3:43 pm
stuff
We have said numerous times that we are not exactly happy with malus and are open for ideas, just not in a news topic.
Lead dev does not mean I´m the best coder around, it just means I have taken on a management role for the devs.
Join the Unofficial IRC
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Zxul
Posts: 422

Re: Malus

Post#19 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 8:33 pm

Natherul wrote:
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:32 pm
I can only speak for myself on this one without speaking to the rest of the leads but I still hold that viewpoint. Else we would degenerate to a case where there is 0 PvP because close to everyone is on the same realm and still get massive rewards from it. Thats also tbf a glaring issue with how loot and other rewards are given on AoR and RoR, rewarding people in this manner is just bad. It would be akin to running SCs with a full team on one side and 2 players on the other and expect the SC to continue uninterrupted with full rewards for the team that outnumbers the other.

We have said numerous times that we are not exactly happy with malus and are open for ideas, just not in a news topic.
Nath I posted it a few times before, guess I will post it again.

What people will do, whatever on zerg or on underdog side, is very easy to predict- they will do what benefits them the most. As in, whatever it is the renown, medals, or something else which is currently the wanted resource, people will go for what is the easiest way to get it. So, as long as zerging in a wb (or in group of 5 wbs) is the easiest way, thats what most will do.

Which leads to the question, why it is the easiest way. The answer is, think of the other ways to get renown for example. In the zerg, you at least get the guaranteed minimum. If you try to roam solo/in a 6man, you have to deal with zerg/ with the few remaining premades/ with fun stuff like 2-3 whs gank teams lf soloers, meaning for an average player likely 0 renown for the effort. As such, more renown for less effort for zerging- what will happen is pretty much obvious.

Now lets compare this to AoR. In AoR, with the bo resource carrier system, you could afk somewhere in the zone, and still get the same renown- so going out solo/in small teams meant that worst case scenario you will still get your guaranteed minimum renown, and best case you will gain.

Or here is another example. In RoR, taking en empty keep means 0 renown, and your roll for bag on winning side is same whatever there are 20 or 200 people on the winning side- so there is no gain for an average player in the zerging side to break off the winning force/ for underdog to switch zone. Which would happen back in AoR, and which would in turn lead to some from the other side going to that zone as well, breaking the zerg and creating local even fights.

Now, lets compare it to RoR again. There is currently no reason for the zerg to do anything but zerg a single pairing, till they get fort- they got nothing to gain from splitting (what good would do to them taking empty zone in a different pairing?), so zerging to fort, and then zerging to second fort, it is.

Which leads to long and core problem of RoR. Very long ago RoR devs decided that they must insure no free rewards for players- no renown for empty keep, no renown for afking in the zone, ets- the problem is, see above- the no free rewards policy is exactly what caused the current situation, where for an average player the is no reason or benefit to do anything but zerg.

Back to malus. What you really need to find, is a way to make it for an average player (the underequipped one, which has no idea what is the best spec for his class) to be more beneficial to leave zerg and spread over zones. Which means, if he got killed 10 times by premades, without killing anyone, and then eventually took a keep without actual resistance (fort is soon, the premades left for the main pairing after getting the kills), he needs to still get as at least as much reward as if he stayed with the zerg. Which however, runs into "Thou shalt not get things for free!" main policy, creating the catch 22 situation which RoR is currently in.
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Detangler
Posts: 138

Re: Malus

Post#20 » Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:53 pm

Malus should stay, but maybe give em no less than 20 renown per kill.

If you dont like it, consider taking your friends and joining the other side. The classes are pretty similar overall minus some glaringly OP skills a few have.

If not, maybe make malus reduce down to 25% renown but give underpopulated side up to 50% damage reduction so they can stick it to the zerglings and make out like bandits with that sweet AAO bonus. That'd make me wanna go out again and again to farm the poor zerglings for rolling the easy side.
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