Warband Winconditions & Morales

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2715

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#11 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:08 am

dansari wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:26 am
roadkillrobin wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 7:53 am
In short, Order set the standard for the meta years ago. Destro adapted to it and Order never really tried something new were given anything else cos it still kinda works. And thats where we still are.
FTFY
People havn't been asking for meta change sollutions, as much as they been whining and begging for for the same things the opposing realm have. And that's pretty much what they got.
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AngryVaran
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#12 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:08 am

wonshot wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:05 pm
Remove the unnecessary Sorc M2 mirror. Massively Nerf Solarflare or remove it. And put a knockback immunity on the last tick of Winds of Insanity. Something like this would make for much more enjoyable even numbers competitive fighting both in the open but also in keepsieges. While I do know I have some Order Bias, I have also done my fair share of playing against really good Destro premade guilds, and played some Destro warband comps myself. I am no expert, but ive been around for quite some time and seen what works and what is just anti-fun.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/495021343?t=01h04m05s

Thanks for reading.
Do you try to find some new meta? Or its just an old-fart tears? If you cant addopt to new tactics from destro thats only your fault. This is survival of the fittest. My mate give you some ideas bout AM in wb.
- 1 AM can give m2 to one target for 10 seconds.
- AM pool reduce initiative.
But you didnt pla with AM in wb, so - blame yourself.
P.S. Sorry for my english, but that ORDA crying bout blobs and OP destro ( trippleloled) is annoying.
No offence mate, just think bout your meta and try find some counterpick for this, like we found.
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Lorsten
Posts: 5

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#13 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:24 am

When you saying that destro WB have more versality, you need to notice that it is spread around many diferent classes, and not all of them shines in RVR.
For example, you talking about maras drain morale, but if you take 3+ maras to wb you lose all the burst aoe dmg from sorcs, and become mellee-oriented, which is not great tbh.
On the other hand order has all they need on 3-4 classes (BW the best aoe dps ingame, kotbs is by far the best tank for rvr, feelsbadman, dear Chosens).
And we have a situation where order can stack BW+KOTBS classes and have all tools they need for RVR, and Destro has to pick different classes, to have the same tools, while weakening other aspects.

-Nerf kotbs, or mirror their auras and morals to Chosens
-Buff aoe maras if you want them to be as usefull as sorcs as main DPS on destro (after this you can delete sorcs m2, np)
-Give wounds buff to DoK

For now winconditions on Order is to make 8 KOTBS 8 BW 8 random healers WB and roflstomp Destro versality WB with maras-choppas-maguses.
Spoil - 81 RR Sorceress

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normanis
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#14 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:37 am

well i agree with bombling kobs/sm ,rp/wp , 8bw maby +2 slayers is order backbone , adding some ather class into meta mean loose damage or heal. ( why thna azoreal + his team even bothered to fix sw/engi/lion/wh).
destro build their wb similar to order ( depends offc from leader) pnp used 4/3 dok 4 shaman + 1 zealot (dps) chosens +3-4 black orcs - because chosen/orc build morales 4 in no time.6 sorc 1 mara 1 choppa.
why so many soc/bw in warband, well most ppl stuck armor to protect from magic damage. :lol: :lol: :lol:
there is no spot for ib ( even ib can buff slayer or anny ather healer/dps)
byt there is spot for 1 2h black guard - crimsondeath and best wounds tactic.
byt 2h ib in wb noone need = shield ib do same byt and have survuve + hold the line.
sw is similar to mara stance dance and similar to squig but noone need sw his aoe sucks even melle squig is better for wb has great aoe damage + shatered limbs. even squig suck as rdps he can build morale 4 and atleast try spam it over order zerg. or send aoe squig pet.
mara is like swiss knife good for newbies good for solo/wb/party
choppa only have place in wb because of gtdc , i think if gms remove it wb-leaders will kickout choppas ases from wb. slayer is only 1 real aoe dps on order so he dont have conqurence vs choppa who need fight for place in wb with mara/squig (if he loose gtdc)
i dont understand 1 = where is balance?
order bw funnel power should be removed from game its will open spot for some ather order class.white lion tree should have major changes
hunter- its pet + player ( guilotine/ heal debuff/armordebuff) if u use pet
axe - player only = coppy paste monstro tree
guardian - pet only skills or its tree who balance hunt/axe tree. for example coordinate strike should be in there , wounds debuff, resistance debuff + iniative + crit tactic and such. alone tree dont work byt togather with hunt or axe its should be great
p.s bw is order back bone no metter how gms nerf ather clases (they can run naked and beat ather with fists) , and ppl play bw even more.
destro is in better solution warband leader have clases from what he can choose.
p.s.s its not order fault destro xrealm to order and vice versa xrealm back to destro when pnp and fmj log in.

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oaliaen
Posts: 606

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#15 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:25 pm

Remove instant Moral dgm for 2 weeks... Cmon devs, lets test to improve!
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Jabba
Posts: 80

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#16 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:28 pm

oaliaen wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 12:25 pm
Remove instant Moral dgm for 2 weeks... Cmon devs, lets test to improve!
Let's go one better, remove every damage morale to test =D

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wonshot
Posts: 405

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#17 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:11 pm

AngryVaran wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 10:08 am

Do you try to find some new meta? Or its just an old-fart tears? If you cant addopt to new tactics from destro thats only your fault. This is survival of the fittest. My mate give you some ideas bout AM in wb.
- 1 AM can give m2 to one target for 10 seconds.
- AM pool reduce initiative.
But you didnt pla with AM in wb, so - blame yourself.
P.S. Sorry for my english, but that ORDA crying bout blobs and OP destro ( trippleloled) is annoying.
No offence mate, just think bout your meta and try find some counterpick for this, like we found.
also
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Well Im glad you should ask.

Since Order was given the Zealot aoe armor debuff mirror, I dont think anyone actually fully tested out how a slayer warband with the right comp would perform to match the BW ball.

I theorycrafted a setup looking like:

6invader slayers (or vanq mix)
1 conq pull + napalm rr 70 engineer to aoe ini debuff (also grinded out full onslaught on my engineer to test the 1k armor debuff)
1 dps runepriest for 50% incoming heal debuff + aoe armor debuff matched with a WW SM in the group for uptime

But heres the thing when fighting on this server, things take time and finding a roster where people are commited to going for such a long grind to test something that could easily fail is close to impossible. Heck even just filling and keeping a BW comp roster intact is a struggle as you can see on the order guild recruitment page.

So yeah, different comps and ideas have been tried and tested.

As for the others talking about morale instant damage. I dont enjoy instant morale damage, but it is a tool needed when being outnumbered and with a targetcap of only 9. with how common 2-2-2 builds are, if two organized warbands from the same realm clash together those tanks will soak up so much targetcap that nothing will be hit by any meaningful critical mass for any zergbusting to be anywhere near succesful.

For the record this post didnt occure to me just recently after getting smashed in orvr. it has been on my mind for close to half a year, but due to order dominating the server for quite a while it never seemed like the right moment to actually bring up this topic.

And while its too much to ask for devs to give order any BW alternatives (WL aoe build?) or waiting for the total morale ability overhaul, it seemed like a better take to ask for Shatter to get removed along with Solarflare to make the fights from both realms more ballanced for citysiege clashes, so order is back to Wincondition on M2. Destro have the displacement and drain/pump to get M3 wincondition, and then M4 is equal.
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madrocks
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Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#18 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:24 pm

Spoiler:
wonshot wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 9:05 pm
Introduction
This topic will be focusing on the perspective of competitive teamplay of Warband-sized warfare and/or several warbands.
I personally have the go-to approach of seeing things from an openfield point of view, but will also include funnels and keepsieges.
If anyone disagrees and have some good counter arguements I would love to see them well presented and formulated, try to keep oneliners and emotional outbursts out of this thanks.


From an organized Warband vs Warband point of view, where the Order setup of stacking Brightwizards pretty much shaped the Meta as the strongest AoE-dps all the way back on Live in 2009 or so. Assisting is good, kiting is excelent but in a largescale game you eventually reach so high playernumbers that singletarget eventually stop functioning before the masses will overrun you, and this is the birth of AoE stacking also refered to as "bombing".

In order for effective AoEing to shine you need to stack enough firepower on top of eachother also refered to as Critical Mass. Simply put, one solo aoeing DPSer will not be able to kill his targets and you need to stack more "bombers" dealing area damage on top of the same group of enemies to create damage pressure. Either to make the cosistant damage unhealable or bursty enough to grant kills.

With the current gear, available stats, Time To Kill, and meta on RoR 3full groups of a warband will struggle but it will not be impossible to do effective Bombing in oRvR. Full warbands will do much better due to the added 2 DPSers in a 2-2-2 setup. And with the target cap of 9players it pretty rare to see bombing take on massive forces while being super outnumbered.

The Win-conditions!
Following the assumption that Order warbands are running 2-2-2 mostly for organized warbands. With the cookiecutter setup looking something like this:

4-8 BWs
1-3 Slayers
4 Woundsbuff +healing WP in each group for mucle-healing and fastphased movement
4 Healing RP with AP-rune and amplifying the healing of the WP with the +25% healing tactic procs on crit
4 Knights for auras, aoe staggers, Stay Focused etc
4 SMs for Whispering Winds to counter any potential Cooldown increase from Meatballs, or just more spam for the partymembers.

RPS Runies, pull engineers, Twohanded Knights for Wounds debuff can all be found in Party4, a Morale-pump AM for MoM snare can also be slotted in here but it will be at the cost of healing in this group as they dont have group buffs compared to the RP+WP healing or stat-buffs. But the core of the warband is the Brightwizard ball with 2-2-2 coverage.

On the other side of the fence the Destro warbands are way more versitile and has many more variations:

Drain Maras, AoE Choppas, AoE sorcs, are the most common DPS'ers. You will find more Shamans in the Destro warbands over AMs in the Order warbands, due to the Morale group pump and aoe Snares to start snaring and controling the very standard Order dps-ball
The only archtype that is about as locked in stone on Destro side, as it is on Order realm. Would be the tank archtype. You dont really want to bring too many, if any? IBs and BGs. These tanks simply have too little statbuffing for their entire groups and function much better in a smaller scale sitiuation where they become higher priority pick for setups.

So how come Destro have more availability than Order does? Cant sorcs Bomb just as well as BW?
Yes and No.
Funnel power is a huge part of the difference between Sorc and BW aoe output. And without diving too deep into what makes either classes better, both have the capability to become the only DPS class you slot for a 24man Bombwarband. However...

Since Order dont have a functioning AoE build that is competitive on the Meleedps classes apart from slayers (WH, WL, ASW) Order competitive compesitions will 9/10 times look heavily stacked with just two AoE-dps classes: BW & Slayer.
Since this is the Meta and Go-to for Order, is now becomes fairly Easy for any competitive Destro Warbandbuilder to put together a counter setup, and that leads me to the actual winconditions.

Order winconditions:
Higher Wounds, healingoutput and AoE-damage output on paper.
Morale 2 BW wincondition (outdated due to Sorc Mirror!?)
SolarFlare drains in funnel situations
M4 defensive morales routated one by one between tanks and WP (mostly keepsieges and super rare in the open)
BW heavy warband hug a WC or keep and build M4 and do coordinated M4 Burninghead

Destro winconditions:

Race the BW M2 drop with the Mirrored M2 drop on Sorc
Morale draining Maras sitting on top of BWs to drain, while building towards M2 and dropping morales first
Blackorc self-morale pumping and reaching M3 to aoe silence the BW ball for 5sec (can be combined with Shaman grouppump)
Zealot Winds of Insanity no knockback immunity displacement on the BW ball.
Mara AoE knockdown on the BW ball to stop the BW-selfpump
Undefendable choppapulls (can be mixed for great destro amusement after a full Zealot channel)

Ofcause is neither of these a garenteed instantwin, and there is room for recovering, turning the tide and making a comeback. But many of these winconditions are on a daily basic followed up by well executed cleanups and therefor secure the victory.
With city sieges coming out soon and more fights hopefully being based around 24v24 instances. I think its about time we have a talk about the realm-balance.

Remove the unnecessary Sorc M2 mirror. Massively Nerf Solarflare or remove it. And put a knockback immunity on the last tick of Winds of Insanity. Something like this would make for much more enjoyable even numbers competitive fighting both in the open but also in keepsieges. While I do know I have some Order Bias, I have also done my fair share of playing against really good Destro premade guilds, and played some Destro warband comps myself. I am no expert, but ive been around for quite some time and seen what works and what is just anti-fun.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/495021343?t=01h04m05s

Thanks for reading.
I am really trying not to go after you but it's quite impossible, buddy.

"Remove the unnecessary Sorc M2 mirror ....... And put a knockback immunity on the last tick of Winds of Insanity."

What the actual ****. I understand you have somewhat of an experience in the game. Part of your explanations might make sense, but then you finish with that? Nein. Please don't speak about competition and BW/Slayer war-band in the same context, "bombling".

"Let's goo boooyyss! LETS BE COMPETITIVE TONIGHT! LFM 4 BW, 4 Slayer, 4 KOTBS, 12 whatever and don't forget to pack the **** cookies! We move in 5,4,3,2,1... Wait, did you spec Rampage and slot aoe m2?"

1 hour later

"Wow! BW in party 3! I am so proud of you! You are on place 2 in K/D ration tonight. You know how important that is for you?"

Acidic wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:08 am
Instant damage M2 and “competitive” game play don’t realy map to each other in my opinion and hardly map to fun,
The solution you propose only solidified the BW place as only only DPS on order which I hope devs do not adopt.
The solution I prefer is still to remove all instant M2 damage from all classes especially the lead damage producers to give space for wb flexibility.
The removal of instant damage M2 from Soc and BW, removal of solar flare, tone down rampage and I would say the game is going in the right direction
The only proper post on this Topic.
If this day ever happens, god I wish it would **** happen alright, I am going to put a fat red mark on the calendar.
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wonshot
Posts: 405

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#19 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:48 pm

madrocks wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:24 pm
A whooole lot of emotion
So you disagree, cool. Why exactly?

As you judge me in this topic, ill judge you just the same way. You are a pug warbandleader who previously have been leading via typing ingame commands and relying on macroes. Probably got a negativ trackrecord vs discord-warbands and therefor tries to downplay any coordination used in guildwarbands.

Welcome to the scene buddy, got any arguements you would like to present, the mic is yours (not litterally, we can type as you prefer)
Bombling BW RR 86 [Seventh Legion]
https://www.twitch.tv/bomblingtv
300.000 oRvR kills

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AngryVaran
Posts: 6

Re: Warband Winconditions & Morales

Post#20 » Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:20 pm

> I theorycrafted a setup looking like
> theorycrafted
> So yeah, different comps and ideas have been tried and tested
> tested
> Tested as theory

RoR Simulator alpha build 0.112?

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