Coordinated Strike nerf (WL)

[zgolec666]

Destro has 12 wb viable classes (ok 11 kg we scratch out we) , order have 9.

So what's stopping you from playing one of the 9 or 12 classes that are 'WB Viable' in your eyes?

I am playing those classes and my WL is on hold, waiting for better days or playing it for lulz occasionally.

It not "in my eyes". No single organized wb will take wl or sw cause ot just wasted spot.

And thats a fact.

[larsulu]

the class isn't based around DoT's and would require an entire rework to make it so.

Hey Fenryl,

I'd like to give you a detailed explanation of why we did the nerf. I'll take ownership and say that this was my idea after a long discussion in the balance channel. It isn't balanced around DoTs; you're right, that's why I would love to add more options in addition to the 10s rotation.

The reason we did the CS nerf is to highlight the abilities that were under-performing - as you've mentioned here, the best part of WL that is over-performing is their 10s rotation - Forced Opportunity, Pack Assault and Coordinated Strike. Anything else outside of that 10s burst rotation is essentially filler / single target pressure. That's not good design if your class is defined by three buttons on the same cooldown that can be used passively to do burst damage, and maybe 2 GCDs outside of that rotation for applying debuffs or pouncing to another target. I'd say CS was the highest performing ability on the WL.

That being said, there needs to be another role for WL outside of that 10s rotation. Let's start by looking at the under-performing abilities in trees:

Hunter

FO/Pounce are standard abilities that everyone pretty much takes at this point. I'm against making them baseline as it forces people to make decisions about what 13pt tree decision they wish to go for.
Hunter's 13 pt ability needs a rework as right now, imo, there is no incentive to go for it. Whirling Axe severely under-performs compared to Slashing Blade.

Slashing Blade can benefit from Tearing Blade AND Hack and Slash tactics, but generally you wouldn't run both of them, as you'd have to give up Speed Training and one of the two: Brute Force, or Flanking, neither of which you'd really want to give up under any circumstance. So really, you either get a strong AOE attack that both Slashing Blade and Whirling Axe benefit from (with Slashing Blade outperforming Whirling Axe in almost every circumstance) or an extra DoT on Slashing Blade and Sundering Chop (which doesn't do that much damage at all.)

I think the best option would be to increase the primary stat modifier of Whirling Axe to 0.66 from the 0.22 where it is now. That would be a pretty big leap, but it would make WL's AOE pretty damn strong and make the 13 point investment worthwhile compared to just putting more points in the tree to improve Slashing Blade.

Some have stated that WL needs an AOE knockdown like Marauders do. I don't think that's the case, as that's unique to marauders and we shouldn't take that away from them. I think WL's AOE just sucks currently, and it's not because they are missing AOE utility.

Axeman
Thin The Herd / Cull the Weak / Primal Fury pretty much defines the Axeman Tree. I think Axeman's passive tactics are lacking. Expect to see a change that allows Full Grown to allow Blindside / Shattering Blow to bypass 35% armor in the future as well as the stat increases. Needs more feedback to see if the CS buff in the last patch (11/9/2019) was enough to restore WL to a somewhat usable state.
As my boss says at work to me about balance changes, "players generally notice changes that are 15% (or more); that's when you generally cross the threshold where you start to notice changes." - I'd expect 35% armor penetration to make those abilities worthwhile.

I feel like the initial/DoT hit is weak on Blindside. I've considered adding weapon damage to that ability for both the DoT and initial hit. Additionally, Shattering Blow is still not where I want it to be, but I'd feel extra dirty if it scaled off weapon damage too. I think the best course of action is to triple the value of SB's Primary Stat Modifier.


Guardian

I think Leonine Frenzy, Brutal Pounce pretty much is class defining for the guardian tree. The passives are too small for me to really want to use them. Would love to see Furious Mending tick every 1 second as opposed to every 5. I wouldn't go overboard like the Torque changes were, though. I think Baited Trap should passively 'steal' disrupt chance on whatever target you use it on when you use Baited Strike, to add a bit of synergy that wasn't there before with RDPS.
But it's missing an ability as well. Echoing Roar takes way too long to build up damage with a 15s duration. I'd rather see it be a 9s duration, 5s reuse, and a tick interval of every 3 seconds.

I would also like to mention that Guardian, imo, is in the best spot - it's the easiest class to play due to most of its abilities being done by the lion and therefore not subjected to GCD (IE; Brutal Pounce, Leonine Frenzy, etc) and you really only have to put brainpower into the 10s rotation and keeping your lion alive or on the right target. It really doesn't need any more changes than what has been presented already.


But muh Marauders!
I'd like to give a similar buff to Marauders, even though they've been the poster child for a 'perfectly balanced class' for a while, a buff to their Rend ability to match that of WL's DoT buffs. They already get an armor bypass on their mutation-required abilities, and it would only seem fair to buff the WL's 'Mythic mirror' with something similar.

Closing
We've actually had a lot more plans for not just WL, but wanted to see how the WL changes were received before moving forward with any more changes. Generally, the feedback has been positive from destro players and neutral from order players.

I'd also like to mention that these are changes *I* want to see and do not reflect the opinions of the entire team, and none of what I posted may stay in the game for long, or if at all.

I think these are pretty good ideas and I just so happen to have access to my local dev server right now. I may stream working on these abilities soon so we can try them out together as a community. Is that something you guys would be interested in seeing?

Let me know, even if it's just feedback. If these changes work well for WL, we'll be touching other classes with similar tweaks.

Marauder just needs the old thunderous blow and a bit rework on draining swipe ( since is out from any rotations ).
Rend is fine.

[Nidwin]

The aoe for the WL comes way too late in the progression path of a character.

I would like to see the following tested.

Slashing blade around level 5 and reduce it AP cost to 40
Loner level 11
Add an aoe DoT that requires loner slotted around level 20 as core ability (not tree related), so a new WL skill
Blade and Claw 1600 damage aoe 30ft in front and requires loner slotted.

My two cents.

[normanis]

magus can realy kill any class 1vs1 ( enginer with every tier get worst and only 40/60 rr can use crit buil to not loose important ather abilities , same + 25% armor pent) because mostly all ppl tougnes is low and resistences is 22%to31%.
why cant make some of white lion aoe abilities spiritual?
and yes i seen my own eyes ppl refuse to inv in wb wl/wh/engi/sw because 1bw outshines tham all. where is balance? magus hit magic damage, squig can go aoe beast , mara is good he is tanky and use monstro hand, sorc is aoe beast number1 . than choppa have spot. ( evryone stucking armor so that why magic dps is shining)
well i can live with it if gms remove cs just give us wounds debuff like mara have it. ( tb - opener , finisher and spam every 5 sec )
blindingside its only on 1 target.
just make pull in konck down, silence same as mara and ppl forgot about pet. ( pet anyway is melle not ranged )
cough cough destro got pounce cough cough , so why white lion cant get some good stuff from mara? ( msh have also shater limbs similar to slayer. black orc and chopa also have single target shater limbs)

You cannot be serious. Did u ever try to play ranged on destro side? Why every time when order siege, destro rangeds are behind the wall? Bad organized WBs? Almost every zone? I dont think so. It is almost every siege. And, when destro siege, the walls are full of order rangeds waiting for their target.
Please, let marauders be. About mara it is simply waisting of time to react... you cant compare WL and mara. Mara need time to deal dmg or kill opponent. WL is very quick while mara need time to do his job. And time is key in most of situations. Tanky mara is not because of spells, but because of eq and talismans, it is not about spells. Wl could run out of the battle, can jump etc.. Realy waisting of time.
Sorc as aoe beast number 1? BW is way better aoe dps than sorc but sorc looks slightly better single target... did u EVER seen play Zarbix? You can see it on your own.
Anyway I dont think that nerfing classes is a good way to keep ppl stay.
I made a SH in time of the last nerf, it was so disappointing. And noone of devs cares anymore... They just nerfed him without any place for our feedback. If u play WL I know how u feel man, but the positive is that devs try to reduce the first nerf. SH is not so lucky. But I dont think that WL as a class should 1hit his opponents (in many cases). In scenarios WLs have most of kills (almost everytime), no matter how good the squad is (even when they are not premade, there is no such a killer on destro side as a melee) and have realy big impact on the game. It realy should be more balanced, but then maybe more aoe for WL? I dont know. Spiritual dmg for few spells? Maybe, idk. (I think zealot should have some spells at least elemental dmg too, now it is like nothing, sick...)
But one more big nerf on destro side, I am leaving definitively. I spent too much time playing this game getting higher RR and better eq to enjoy my char and than I should choose and play another char because of nerfs... like mara or SH. It is very good game (much much better than WoW for me in many cases) but sometims I dont understand the philosophy of... where it all goes (like the 24 aoe cap for aoe dmg spells, but what about healers?) Etc.

i played sorc/magus and ranged squig. highest is my sorc with rr . i played with sorc in premades vs order premades. and we stomped order ( than i got bored order dont show resistence in eu prime time so rolled order.) even my friend ( his main is sorc) played with bw byt he better liked sorc.
about maras thunderous blow its dont require arm to use like flail. that why u can use it scav/brut/monstro handed. mara is good to drain morales and ap if u sacrefice +50crit tactic. and they are good in 6vs6 and 1vs1. (have spot in wb)
mdps squig is good aoe and similar to shater limbs ( have spot for 1)
choppa is good no matter ppl say
sorc is aoe beast on destro side
bright wizard is order core and aroun 6-7 bw will be builed any wb, replacing 1 wb its huge lose of damage. that why i saying sw/wl/engi need some aoe redone.( about engi i dont know they like magus is buffed einugh. from 25% damage to 40% magus every tree have +15 magic crit. so u can have have 2 builds for magus maby 3 and respec cost nothing)
coordinate strike i use loner tactic , pet has down fall also no mater what destro say. free ap / rend from doks. ignore pet and kill owner. for me replace cordinate strike with 100 wounds debuff i will be very happy i dont know about destro will they will be happy if they loose 1000 hp + rest dots and spams. i can live without pet. just give pull in knock down same as mara . ( mara pull works briliant for me 100% pullin no fails vs white lion pet pull its a joke not pull)
p.s ( in lore chrace axemen elfs killed white lions and wear their skin as proove they are fearless elfs. white lion=white shark. some of tham tame cubs and used tham as mounts or in chariots. warhammer total war 2/1 there is no white lion with pet . and its confirmed by game workshop. in this game creators addeed pet because to be vs squig herder.)
i think if all order play kobs/bw and healers its will good for forums and gms no need balance game lesser headache also ( byt its only my point of view)

[carlos]

Destro has 12 wb viable classes (ok 11 kg we scratch out we) , order have 9.

So what's stopping you from playing one of the 9 or 12 classes that are 'WB Viable' in your eyes?

It not "in my eyes". No single organized wb will take wl or sw cause ot just wasted spot.

And thats a fact.

The statement you are running is NOT fact. It is in yours (and others, who don't want to see progress) eyes.
http://bakfullaangorakatter.com/Starfkr ... actory.jpg

[kilafornia]

No single organized WB will take DpS DOK reeeee. And we dont have gap closer, escape mechanic or burst.

[normanis]

cough cough bright wizard bombling have 113 kills and white lion double less cough cough
byt mostly order premades dont acept wl , i dont know why. stereotips or maby hate

[normanis]

dok have best aoe heal debuff byt dps zealot also have same heal debuff. to play with dps zealot is safier. if dps zealot aoe heal debuff tactic will be like rp heal debuff than offc dps dok>dps zealot.
p.s i checked rp and it also have incoming healdebuff, why i sought its outgoing heal debuff.
i never really played dok as dps because ppl started to hate me , byt i can also be wrong about heals tooltip about zealot and dok heals says incoming and all heals. bg also have all heals. ( english is not my main language so all for me realy means all) byt its out of topic about wl cordinate strikes

[Nidwin]

@normanis

Magus only has 15% critt for Havoc or Changing and has none for Daemonology or non-tree core abilities.

The issue I see in the lakes is that Engies are all single target pang/pang max ranged while they would be a huge asset in wb gameplay. I would love to have Concussive Mine tactic on my Magus, but that would be OP in some Magus hands I presume. And let's not talke about core morales 3 and 4, mind you. I'm not saying the Magus is bad, can't for sure, but the Engies are actually in a great shape, just not specced and played for pure wb gameplay.

AOE sorcs are great, indeed as coordinated melee bombs, otherwise they aren't that great outside morale 2 for 10s. Don't comprate aoe leeching and be a difference maker.

Marauders, yeah. Roll one and check for yourself. A lot of them are actually wandering immunity distributors for order.

May be the issue on order side is that BW's are too easy to play or that other careers haven't showed what they could truly bring to a wb gameplay. But that's not my problem, yours it is.

[carlos]

cough cough bright wizard bombling have 113 kills and white lion double less cough cough
byt mostly order premades dont acept wl , i dont know why. stereotips or maby hate

Yes, ofc - Bombling is Bombling. There is no scenario where he isn't no. 1 on the kill list.
Though, where are the other 26 BW's that was in the zone. There is WL's in spot 2-4.