WL or SH stronger?

[wachlarz]

Id ppl dont know what is better, then the both classes are good balanced

[drmordread]

But Chinesehero, do you even have a destro toon to know how it is to face a WL? Or do you just assume you know from listening the cries of WLs killed in rvr by mDOKs and shaman?

Worry not, WL is still the second best melee in the game, after slayer and before aSW.

I do. I have destro toon and I know what it is like to face a WL, and WL is not that OP. Want to know what the biggest problem is? People (both order and destro) do not know how to hit their detaunt key. Seriously, when I play a WL, I can count on two hands the amount of time I am detaunted in combat in four to five hours of gameplay.

A few notes on the White Lion

WL Pet is broken.
1- Anyone who complains about being run down by the pet needs to check their game play. Detaunt and hit flee and you are free. The devs slowed down the pet speed so that a WL player has to waste a tactic, just to have the pet move at same speed as the player. And it can not go faster. SO ... either flee or charge, will let you escape a WL pet. Every time !!!! CC also works on a pet, so use it. If you are in a group or wb and get pulled, blame the lack of cc on your team mates, not the WL.

2- Pull will not work on a detaunted pet. Also, a pet can be slowed, kd, rooted, etc, just like a player. Mara pull is now undefendable, and a mara can still run backwards while pulling and pull you further.

[adamska2]

Hey guys WL is S+ TIER !

If you dont perform with WL, you just dont play the class correctly.

[bctakhy]

To make SH punce with no CD, u need use TA tactic, what make u sacrifice have pet (that is pretty usules for melee), u also sacrifice range dmg, since it have like 90% dmg reduction with that tactic and also, the use of 25% tactic with no pet.

That uber combo u say for AE punt and then punce to healer is imposible to do, basic cos u not only got 1 sec CC after use punt, u lost the armour stance and need 10 sec to use again, that is not posible.

U dont have disarn, since it need a pet.

U dont have charge, cos it needs a pet.

U dont have silence as melee.

U dont have heal debuff as melee spec.

mSH have only single KD with same CD as rest.

mSH DONT have any root, ST or AE (that is WL and SM who can pounce and root)


Now, why use TA tactic? Simple, every other spec is not viable at all. Pet soo usules for mSH. The melee pets allways behind, die only looking to then and bug all time reseting target and only melee ones works with GE (that also need 2 tactic slots for make it usefull) and if u test it, u can see u do less dmg overall.


What can do WL in WB? same as mSH and more, maybe what ppl fail is on playing it. If u go leroy mode and jump in mid of WB, u are dead, as mSH, as WL or as SW, even as a SM. If u w8 the rigth time, u can survive some time but that need a group cordination, and u can do as any of the class before mentioned. Plus, mSH soo easy counter, if u know how


mSH have very low options. Basic only have 1, that is mid tree that u can max at lvl 37. All other points to 40/70 going nowhere. u have only 3 viable tactics combinations for melee that change on need. I have extra tactic for ranged, soo i dont feel usules in keep turtle sieges looking to walls (away the few keeps u can jump in like other 3 order jumper, and that is if enemie allow u), and that require a change of gear also.

[Alfa1986]

someone is pretend to be blind
SH can pounce. punt , KD, heal debuff, snare jump back, shoot and have a range pet, it is useful than a lion which cant use range

SH almost got all ability of all mdps and rdps
and their dmg is still high having so many cc ability

someone either does not understand or does not know what mSH actually has, or simply misinform people. mSH has no control, well, almost none, any sane healer can survive knock for 3 seconds (since mSH doesn’t have such burst as VVL), disarm is related with a pet (you cannot have a pet when set TA tactic ), and silence is a range ability at all (u cannot use a range skill while u are in mele), heal debuff is a range the same. the punch has a cooldown of 10 seconds (if TA tactic is not set), and it works very poorly, the fact is that while squig "flies", the target manages to run a certain distance and mele skills, such as knock or slowdown, are often inaccessible (the target is arleady no reachable for them ). so in reality mSH has punch, knock, slowdown, aoe dot, aoe dps, two single dps, aoe root, and increased speed + 75% with a 60 second cooldown))) which also interupts imediatly if the squig does any jump)

Ps

lets me be some toxic

and yes, if we talk about the op, is it not better to talk about engineers? what other class in the game has such a huge DPS, and so much control?)

a good melee SH can control the melee and range form well to use those cc ability and that why i say OP. I have met those sh in sc , they can fully use their ability to punt u to snare u and KD u
most SH is good on using a strong punt then they pounce to our healer to kill them
u pretend to be blind so u say this

in theory, yes, in the game is unlikely. firstly, not only the distribution of master points, but also renown points and equipment is adjusted to a certain style / build. if the main stats and crit from items are converted to mele < -> range, then the stats received for rp don't, as well as pots.
secondly, in order to take a heal debuff, you have to seriously cut down mele spec even by 70+ rr. thirdly, the transition from mele to range and vice versa takes time and in the dynamics of the battle you lose more than you gain.

as an example, squig runs up to a healer and use heal debuff (+ 1s), change to mele (+ 1s), punch (+ 1s), knock (+ 1s) (4-5s). during this time, healer hangs on the squig detaunt (+ 1 sec), hot for itself (+1 sec), the second hot (+ 1 sec), and there is still time to use stagger / buff / clear /or something else.


if mele squig could also use a heal debuff in squig armor, or have such a burst in which the target could be killed for 3 sec bounch , or could use disarm (without pet) and silence (in SA), then your pretension would have more weight.

[BeautfulToad]

No way you could switch between melee and ranged mid fight, your tactic slots are all different. You could maybe switch at the start of the siege and switch back once the door comes down, but you would not be as effective at rdps.

[Klozje]

It's clear most people posting in here have no clue how SH works at all, as people have pointed out already this fantasy about using all this amazing utility is complete nonsense because it's all spread out in different builds / tactic setups / inside squig armor / outside squig armor / requires a pet / requires TA (cant use pet).

[Aceboltz]

I do. I have destro toon and I know what it is like to face a WL, and WL is not that OP. Want to know what the biggest problem is? People (both order and destro) do not know how to hit their detaunt key. Seriously, when I play a WL, I can count on two hands the amount of time I am detaunted in combat in four to five hours of gameplay.

A few notes on the White Lion

WL Pet is broken.
1- Anyone who complains about being run down by the pet needs to check their game play. Detaunt and hit flee and you are free. The devs slowed down the pet speed so that a WL player has to waste a tactic, just to have the pet move at same speed as the player. And it can not go faster. SO ... either flee or charge, will let you escape a WL pet. Every time !!!! CC also works on a pet, so use it. If you are in a group or wb and get pulled, blame the lack of cc on your team mates, not the WL.

2- Pull will not work on a detaunted pet. Also, a pet can be slowed, kd, rooted, etc, just like a player. Mara pull is now undefendable, and a mara can still run backwards while pulling and pull you further.

So much misinformation, as usual.

I could sum up you first sentence as: "It's not my class that is OP, it's just that you guys suck at the game". Well you play WL but you clearly don't face them very often.

They are the hardest class to detaunt in the game, period.
First they pounce on you from a distance, you may not have the enemy WL player targeted at all times to detaunt it as soon as you see him flying towards you.
Then you must have good reflexes because when he land he will knock you down or silence you if you happen to be an unlucky caster. When the cc is over you are at ~25% hp at best. At that point detaunt is useless. You can't detaunt while CC, casters can't detaunt while silenced.
Then they are a pet class, this means you basically have 50% chance to have the PET targeted instead of the player. Good players will always let the pet hit first so the victim has to change targets in order to detaunt, again must be very fast, etc.
Then the damage is split between the lion and the pet this means detaunting one of them does not reduce the damage taken by 50% but more like 25%.
Finally many destro ranged players knows horrors of the tab targeting in this game where a wl and his pet are on top of you and when you hit tab (assuming you use the correct one) you just cycle through the nearest kotbs and the pet, lol.
Etc, etc, etc. This detaunt speak is nonsense, total concrete bias. There are only 2 ways to deal with a WL if you don't play oneof the very few (2) specs that counters them: either you gank 3v1 or you are in a group with comms and focus the pet as soon as it appears, 100% of the time. No other way around. And because the pet is immune to aoe damage, this is not trivial, but not really hard either, I have to say.

"Detaunt and hit flee and you are free". If you bothered to l2p you would notice that 'charge!' increases the speed of the pet by 50 making if FASTER than a fleeing target.

"The devs slowed down the pet speed so that a WL player has to waste a tactic". Pets have normal base movement speed.

"Pull will not work on a detaunted pet". What are you talking abount now. Wether you detaunt or not makes no difference, you can still be pulled just the same. The only scenario when the pull will never work is when the target has the CC immunity, as intended.

"Mara pull is now undefendable" It has parry and block checks, stop dreaming.

Sorry but some debunking was really needed there.

[drmordread]

So much misinformation, as usual.

I could sum up you first sentence as: "It's not my class that is OP, it's just that you guys suck at the game". Well you play WL but you clearly don't face them very often.

They are the hardest class to detaunt in the game, period.
First they pounce on you from a distance, you may not have the enemy WL player targeted at all times to detaunt it as soon as you see him flying towards you.
Then you must have good reflexes because when he land he will knock you down or silence you if you happen to be an unlucky caster. When the cc is over you are at ~25% hp at best. At that point detaunt is useless. You can't detaunt while CC, casters can't detaunt while silenced.

Before you wallow in the pity party too long, let's look at this as individual parts first.

WE's have AoE detaunt, do not need to target lion, or player. Period
DoK's have AoE detaunt that can be specced into, they do not have to target anyone
Gobbo's have detaunt tactics that work without having to target anything.
Zealot's ( I believe but not sure cause I do not play one) also have an AoE detaunt option and have the three punt away's
Mara; NEVER played one so don't know, but I am going to guess that they too can spec into an aoe detaunt.
Magus has extreme range, has nothing to worry about. (I play one and WL's have never been a problem. Actually get pissed when everyone targets a WL and I am only one targeting backlines).
Sorc, has the most to worry about if playing pug or solo. But one class not doing well, does not the WL OP. In a grp, the sorc is always guarded, and has heals, so sorc has nothing to worry about.

ALL Tanks; If a tank can not survive the opening burst of a WL and then either escape to backlines, wait for their dps to finish it off, or kill it itself, then the player is playing the tank wrong. Period

Then they are a pet class, this means you basically have 50% chance to have the PET targeted instead of the player. Good players will always let the pet hit first so the victim has to change targets in order to detaunt, again must be very fast, etc.
Then the damage is split between the lion and the pet this means detaunting one of them does not reduce the damage taken by 50% but more like 25%.
Finally many destro ranged players knows horrors of the tab targeting in this game where a wl and his pet are on top of you and when you hit tab (assuming you use the correct one) you just cycle through the nearest kotbs and the pet, lol.
Etc, etc, etc.

Welcome to the world of pets. From lion to squig, flamer and turret, all the same. I play all pet classes, both realms, and yes, the pet attacks first, yes the pets are a pain, no the pets are not OP.

This detaunt speak is nonsense, total concrete bias. There are only 2 ways to deal with a WL if you don't play oneof the very few (2) specs that counters them: either you gank 3v1 or you are in a group with comms and focus the pet as soon as it appears, 100% of the time. No other way around. And because the pet is immune to aoe damage, this is not trivial, but not really hard either, I have to say.

"Detaunt and hit flee and you are free". If you bothered to l2p you would notice that 'charge!' increases the speed of the pet by 50 making if FASTER than a fleeing target.

"The devs slowed down the pet speed so that a WL player has to waste a tactic". Pets have normal base movement speed.

"Pull will not work on a detaunted pet". What are you talking abount now. Wether you detaunt or not makes no difference, you can still be pulled just the same. The only scenario when the pull will never work is when the target has the CC immunity, as intended.

"Mara pull is now undefendable" It has parry and block checks, stop dreaming.

Sorry but some debunking was really needed there.

A lot of what you have here is from a solo point of view. I love playing solo, from WE to SH to WL, WH, and even my Magus at times. But I also realize something. Unless I get the drop, unless I strike first, the chances of me surviving are less than 50%. But that is the life of a solo player. Even on my WL, if a WE jumps me first, or a SH or a dps shamie, I am in trouble.

You said "Pets have normal movement speed". I am going to guess that you do not play a WL or a SH, because no, pets do not have normal movement speed. Squigs are ranged for the most part so not going to mention them more than this.

In order for my WL pet to close in, melee hit, and hopefully pull, I and all players playing a WL, need to have the speed tactic slotted. Fact of life. Going to test the detaunt and pull thing again, but I do believe I am right.

Tell me, how much parry does a BW, engi, ranged SW, AM, RP, have? How much block?

So sitting there and pretending that the Mara pull is NOT OP, is kind of being a self serving homer. (A homer is someone who always cries about their home team being picked on and always complains that the other team is either OP or whatever.)