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Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

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mubbl
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#11 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 pm

empmoz wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:59 pm
wonshot wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:34 pm

Order Waband tier list:
Good list, the mirrors should apply to destro also (chosen best rvr tank, sorc best aoe dps, dok + zealot best healers)
Parts yes parts not, in detail it may vary also.
Also on destro it depens what you wanna do.

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wonshot
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#12 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 pm

Phantasm wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:54 pm

Good stuff there Bombling, question about SWs and IBs, did u try a variation of WB bombing with AoE snares IBs and M3 SW + AM and range bombing with rain of fire/flashfire?
The thing is, atleast for me when building a comp, that you need to compare each addition you swap out of a perfect min-max warband roster, to what you are giving up and gaining. If you slot one or several SWs just for them to get an offensive m3 aoe stagger 1200 drop, you now have a class with no self-pump and very suboptimal aoe damage outside of this one trick as the SW class mechanic is simply put just not as strong as the Slayer / BW / Engineer for this enviroment of mobile roaming 24v24.

So the SW has to either compete for a pure aoe raw ability slot but cant keep up with BW/SLayer, the morale for a onetrick dump would have to compete vs BW selfpump on a M2 (720 morale points) vs M3 (1800 morale points) value so not only does it take longer to reach you would need external source of pumping. In terms of utility the SW can bring 8%critchance to the party at the cost of a tacticslot, and thats cute but still not enough value to replace a "does it all BW".

Lilith Arrow spam is a ghetto way of applying Piercedefence when you then try to slot the SW on a Utility slot, and Engineer has longer range, more other utility in terms of debuffing and better group/warband statvalue to bring.

Ironebreaker is a good way to get some AoE snares on Order, Powered Etchings tactic is unclenseable as any Snare on a Tactic, so you can get that effect on your DPS runepriest if you feel the need to "reset" a fight with a big aoe punt+tactic. While not going down on stat-value for your party by slotting in an IB instead of a knight or SM.

The meta right now in top Min-maxing is just morale bombing, if you dont bring an advantage on the morale minigame (pump,drain, dump) you will get blown out of the water. And if someone would make a list of a destro warband on here, you would see that all their top tier tanks have selfpumps, their dps roles will be focused on selfpumping + dumping and/or draining, making the Order list look like only stacking BW is available for kite-pump-n-dump to avoid the unmatched draintrain of stacking 3 monstro maras and 5sorcs.
https://www.twitch.tv/bomblingtv/clip/P ... &sort=time (kindly clipped by TUP, welcome back btw :D )

Morales are a big part of the game, and Order absolutely got crazy good advantages on raw abilties so its natural that Destro have drain or pump advantage! But if you bring anything but BWs and run Burning Heads from range right now, I unfortuneatly cant see how you can go toe to toe with these stacked Destro premade warbands :)
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Wam
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#13 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:05 am

No order guild is running enough BW's to make it fair comparison

VII you guys are falling into same problem as CNTK before you did

and yes I know its hard to get enough good BW's all under the same roof and play that style but you are not really generally playing to your strengths as a realm if you don't(especially if you are against superior numbers) you are a bit in between and it costs you because you get counter countered... and yes there is ways to counter BW, like there is ways to counter anything... but you need to have RAW damage and i mean real damage and good movement then you will have better times generally.

the way you overlook some class and favour others is at odds to my experiences and how i would rate things differently.

Order have same problem that i mentioned long ago about lack of variety of viable warband dps class, destro is more flexible... it's still the same way since i made pug guide for order. (some of the classes which are useless in comparison to BW, EXCEL in small scale though)

I always see complaints but i never see order guys running full min max warband, if you go in between you get in between results so any comparison is not fair. You guys are good and probably best on order side, but you shoot yourself in the foot before you begin with setup, then a few wipes and morale starts to drop, when we both know you have alot of potential.

On destro side... there is multiple different styles you can go, I know what i want and like, sometimes I deviate from it a little bit to mix things up... there is not just one size fits all for destro, so even some fringe classes I sometimes overlook are still viable if the player is highly skilled enough and in sync with rest of warband and their role. You can go ranged or melee based or inbetween on destro... on order you really need to be a full bomb WB.
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#14 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 am

Wam wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:05 am
...No order guild is running enough BW's to make it fair comparison ...
....and yes I know its hard to get enough good BW's all under the same roof ....
And that is the issue imho. Either you go BW or you go home, that approch is just so hard to recruit with and keep a warband roster going. People get tired of playing the BWs as a Must, and lose motivation and recruitment falls apart. The ammount of times you try to recruit on Orderside, find a good WH, WL, or SW and have to tell them to reroll or its a "no" is just too uphill and the reason you see 4 Order warband-guilds all under the "3fullgroup curse" or below.
(from my understanding that was also something that haunted TUP before last break, all the sorc mains were bored of sorc and wante to play choppas and ****.) Now imagine this issue on Order :D
But its nice to see an other competitive warband guild active and playing.
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#15 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:29 am

wonshot wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 am
Wam wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:05 am
...No order guild is running enough BW's to make it fair comparison ...
....and yes I know its hard to get enough good BW's all under the same roof ....
And that is the issue imho. Either you go BW or you go home, that approch is just so hard to recruit with and keep a warband roster going. People get tired of playing the BWs as a Must, and lose motivation and recruitment falls apart. The ammount of times you try to recruit on Orderside, find a good WH, WL, or SW and have to tell them to reroll or its a "no" is just too uphill and the reason you see 4 Order warband-guilds all under the "3fullgroup curse" or below.
(from my understanding that was also something that haunted TUP before last break, all the sorc mains were bored of sorc and wante to play choppas and ****.) Now imagine this issue on Order :D
But its nice to see an other competitive warband guild active and playing.
yes when some of your killers at the time end up playing magus and choppa :lol: always telling me it does XYZ and to look at the kills... and im like yes but no 8-) even for us can be challenge to get enough bw so i know its not simple or everyone would be doing it and not have the dreaded 3fg curse you speak of, that are geared and experienced enough but orders never been our main side to focus yet. But once it "clicks" you will know, i've seen it click a couple times under old system on order side which is pretty good considering how under geared and leveled some slackers was :roll:

Personally prefer leading destro side, the flexibility is part of that equation, style also, and character models are better looking :lol:

Not against leading on order either, just the rigid setup makes it even more demanding as like you said you go bw or you go home. (setup is like half the battle) I wasn't playing during AOE WL phase, but i heard it was good and atleast gave order some alternatives which im sure would of been nice freshness for both sides.
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#16 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:29 am

Well for fun of it, I can chip in with my Destro warband tier list aswel, but mainly from fighting against destro over the last ten years on Karak Norn and now RoR. Played some destro warbands myself but not to the same extend as on Order, no question about it.

S-Tier:

BlackOrc. Group utility from Waagh (at the cost of a tactic slot though!) Good stat value from War Bellows, Procentage(!!) based morale-selfpump. 5sec aoe silence M3 drop. The backbone of many Destro groups and fit any situation despite his size.

Mara. I was a little in doubt to put Mara S-tier but due to how Order build warbands the value in in Monstro-mara is just great. Ini+WS aoe debuff, unmatched AoE knockdown on enemy realm, spamable morale drain procs, an offensive M2 drop, 50% critdmg tactic, singletarget pull to catch a keytarget.


A-Tier:

Sorc Arguebly strongest AOE damage on Destro, offensive partywide proc-buffs, strong classmechanic, ability to go both maxrange mediumrange or closecombat aoe. Resist selfbuff, Several decent utility morale options and then theres Shatter M2 who arguebly should never had been mirrored.

DPSZealot Debuffing 50%incoming healdebuff on crit tactic matched with several easier groupcooldownincreasers on demand, aoe Armor/resist debuff and the utility to do Winds of insanity to reset a fight or "zone" an area is unmatched value, The zealot has an akward way of applying the HD from range via the ritual tactic and thats the only edge id give the DPS runie over zealot playmaker DPSbuild. This class spec can win a fight for you alone.

Chosen A tank who lost his identity along time ago. Weaker than Knight in all aspects but selfmorale pump and is now an aurabot with the role of rushing M2 and doing Distracting Bellow rotations trying to remember the glorydays of actually doing Crippling strikes debuffing and not just being stat-value in a pretty armor.

HealDOK With Onslaught proc and 24aoe-cap the RF/SE mechanic is too easy to refill and the muscle healinging available is unmatched on WP/DOK. Covenants bring strong groupvalue, fast heals and grouphots plus two resource pools the DOK is the main healer in every group.

HealZealot Winds of Insanity to protect yourself and other backliners vs any mdps coming at you without KB immunities on them, strong group stat value from rituals and buffs, and paired with a Healdok you almost reach Order's power setup of healing output just minus the 15% from knight.

B-tier:

RiftMagus 6player pulls, upto 24player ranged staggers, mirrored aoe knockdown but not as needed since destro have a better version in Mara and need the cooldown more for BO M3silences.AOE interrupt, but still a pet class and will be slotted as a Utility slot in the warband. Not a Class you invite before you have 3fullgroups with solid setup unless zergsurfing or renown tagging a funnel.

Meatball Cooldown reliant aoe presure, NEEDs to be babysat by a BO partner for Waaagh, good survivability, pounce to reach enemy backline to apply Cooldownincreaser and a selfpunt to get out somewhat safely, mix of corp/psy damage and not getting ranged strikethrough converted making your damage hard to push over a certain point. Annoyingly good AoE snare M2, a self-groupbased pump and a 2400 M4 aoe drop. Sort of easy to counter this class with any sort of interrupt or CC.

Choppa Orcs get +wounds tactic to match their theme of being bigger and beafier, if its meant as a counter to Orders heavy damage i dunno but it helps. Choppa has the speedup+pull to piss everyone off, both teammates and enemies because of the immunity. It is not Rampage level of burst like on Slayer, but it allows you to hit upto 24people with an aoe channel with undefendable attacks while its ongoing plus you get the 2nd cooldown increaser on Destro in this class making for perfect Greenskin groups if your into roleplay rvr. Weak-to-no morale play and pretty much requires perma AP pot useage and aoe armor debuffing externally to spam Wild Choppin' and mowing throuhg puggies.

HealShammy Group-morale pump on Ere we go (plus the attacks are morale damage if im not mistaking for a little bit of group burst, might just be the tactic?) Sticky feetz aoe snare and instant ress Dr Who style tactic. No decent groupbuffs apart from all-resist for the party makes the class fall alittle behind the two other healers in terms of groupbuff but the morale boost for the party gives more shamans a warband spot than Order likes to see.

C-tier:

BlackGuard Nothing fancy here really, half of the reason BO is so good is due to the lack of competition in Warbandtanking. BG only has Criplingstrikes to offer for largescale and is pretty much just like IB a much better clase for smallscale pvp than oRvR min-max warbands. BG still provides the base-line tanking tools of Hold the line, challange, taunt and gaurd while doing his class mechanic. But overall its a statloss to the group he is in, if you take a BG over a BO/Chosen.

WitchElf A Ghetto version of Mara on many levels. Brings some Morale drain on a 10sec cooldown just like WH, while pumping the party. But both effects are found in better and more useful spots in a destro warband. Where you get the group pump from Shaman, or enemy morale drain from Mara. WE has an offensive M2 drop and can do some scouting from Stealth (waste of a slot really)

DPS DoK I love you Lutz, but DPS dok brings a healing debuff proc that a min-max warband would get in a DPSzealot while getting alot of other benefits. Ghetto version of DPSzealot

D-Tier:

Ranged SH. The Bow classes just have too weak class mechanics to deal propper aoe damage atm. They bring very little to no utility in these specs for largescale where critical mass is needed and everything is upscaled (singlehealdebuffing needs to be AoE etc etc) You would be much better off slotting a sorc for RDPS over a rSH, unfortuneatly.

So comparing my two very BIASED lists, Order is holding the 3 core Empire classes on S-tier but then lose alot of steam and quickly drop the lowermiddle tiers. Where as Destro have more of a big stack in the top/middle tiers making almost every class have a warband viable spec. The grass is always greener, but I blame the Greenskins for that :geek:
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mubbl
Posts: 170

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#17 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:22 am

Spoiler:
Wam wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:29 am
wonshot wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:33 am
Wam wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:05 am
...No order guild is running enough BW's to make it fair comparison ...
....and yes I know its hard to get enough good BW's all under the same roof ....
And that is the issue imho. Either you go BW or you go home, that approch is just so hard to recruit with and keep a warband roster going. People get tired of playing the BWs as a Must, and lose motivation and recruitment falls apart. The ammount of times you try to recruit on Orderside, find a good WH, WL, or SW and have to tell them to reroll or its a "no" is just too uphill and the reason you see 4 Order warband-guilds all under the "3fullgroup curse" or below.
(from my understanding that was also something that haunted TUP before last break, all the sorc mains were bored of sorc and wante to play choppas and ****.) Now imagine this issue on Order :D
But its nice to see an other competitive warband guild active and playing.
yes when some of your killers at the time end up playing magus and choppa :lol: always telling me it does XYZ and to look at the kills... and im like yes but no 8-) even for us can be challenge to get enough bw so i know its not simple or everyone would be doing it and not have the dreaded 3fg curse you speak of, that are geared and experienced enough but orders never been our main side to focus yet. But once it "clicks" you will know, i've seen it click a couple times under old system on order side which is pretty good considering how under geared and leveled some slackers was :roll:

Personally prefer leading destro side, the flexibility is part of that equation, style also, and character models are better looking :lol:

Not against leading on order either, just the rigid setup makes it even more demanding as like you said you go bw or you go home. (setup is like half the battle) I wasn't playing during AOE WL phase, but i heard it was good and atleast gave order some alternatives which im sure would of been nice freshness for both sides.
"flexibel" on maybe 50% of the warband slots for destro. not really sure how it is on order but on paper it is more streamlind in my op, BUT it is also way more flexible then propagate by many folks here. and if i read min-max i dont know what kind of min-max, cause it is obviously not how i understand it. ^_^
my only problem is based on this, i can just tell from my expirence against an enemy that always plays the same....even it is already know its not so well performing and even the most obvious stuff is not integrated. i dont know why...arguments are given, are the same on destro but since there ist just a little, little, little gap between destro and order in the basic stuff, you are basicly dont care if you lose some dps, since it dont count, cause you cant deal it when you are dead or what you can deal dont count since it is way less and the basic counter is so over the top that you HAVE to deal with it, if you cant "out play" your enemy.
-> There is no real destro "tier" list, since destro is not realy dictating the meta(or do it?) but has more SHOWN answer, since order dont change.
Core for destro for me is:
bo
dps zealot
heal zealot and heal dok

BeautfulToad
Posts: 376

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#18 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:07 pm

wonshot wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 pm
Ironebreaker is a good way to get some AoE snares on Order, Powered Etchings tactic is unclenseable as any Snare on a Tactic, so you can get that effect on your DPS runepriest if you feel the need to "reset" a fight with a big aoe punt+tactic. While not going down on stat-value for your party by slotting in an IB instead of a knight or SM.
Personally, I can't see how a Runepriest would be picked in a dps slot over BW, Slayer, or Engineer. Warrior Priest dps seems stronger.

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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#19 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:28 pm

BeautfulToad wrote:
Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:07 pm
wonshot wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:28 pm
Ironebreaker is a good way to get some AoE snares on Order, Powered Etchings tactic is unclenseable as any Snare on a Tactic, so you can get that effect on your DPS runepriest if you feel the need to "reset" a fight with a big aoe punt+tactic. While not going down on stat-value for your party by slotting in an IB instead of a knight or SM.
Personally, I can't see how a Runepriest would be picked in a dps slot over BW, Slayer, or Engineer. Warrior Priest dps seems stronger.
It's for armour debuff and heal debuff. Mainly utility.
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Smellybelly
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Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#20 » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:38 pm

Had the dubious honor of playing along a dps zealot and a dps shaman, while on my choppa. That was so stupid im at a loss for words, no burst and no viable offhealing while they were both snacks for orders pouncy WL. Complete rubbish

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