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Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

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BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#31 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am

mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am


order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
I don't disagree with some of Aurandilaz / Wonshot's picks, but it just feels a lot of players have this perception.

I don't think there is a big difference between order/destro in warbands, but one thing makes me raise an eyebrow. The idea you would put chosen in a different tier from its mirror (or BW/Slayer in a different tier from its mirror) while having engi and magus in the same tier does not make a huge amount of sense to me. I think Engi is good, but Magus gives destro two ranged magic AoE specs, and the fact magus only needs to max int, while engi needs to max BS and WS, allows for a second viable Magus build.

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Arbich
Posts: 559

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#32 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:01 am
SSS TIer, Choppa with good tank + proper heals + BiS maxed out gear (send hlps pls)

Image


S tier;
BW Sorc Mara Zdps
BORK KOTB
zealot RP WP

A tier;
Slayer
Chosen SM
DoK

B tier;
Choppa mSquig Engi Magus dpsRP
IB 2h BG 2h Kotb
AM Shaman

C tier;
Squig WL
BG
dps DoK, dps Sham, dps AM, dps WP

D tier;
SW WE WH


you stack wb with S and A tiers, then occasionally allow B and most avoid C tier classes
D tier classes should come with a warning when creating one for new players, "consider rerolling if you want to experience endgame RvR"
Dps DoK in same category as dps WP? Dps Shaman and dps AM better than WE/WH? I think you have some clue about wb-play, but I don't get this list at all. Could you elaborate?
Arbich-BW/Xanthippe-WP/Schnipsel-AM

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Nidwin
Posts: 645

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#33 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:24 am

BeautfulToad wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am


order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
I don't disagree with some of Aurandilaz / Wonshot's picks, but it just feels a lot of players have this perception.

I don't think there is a big difference between order/destro in warbands, but one thing makes me raise an eyebrow. The idea you would put chosen in a different tier from its mirror (or BW/Slayer in a different tier from its mirror) while having engi and magus in the same tier does not make a huge amount of sense to me. I think Engi is good, but Magus gives destro two ranged magic AoE specs, and the fact magus only needs to max int, while engi needs to max BS and WS, allows for a second viable Magus build.
No.
Path of the Grenadier is fully corporeal damage and does not require WS.
Nidwinqq used teabag Magus [Hysteria]

BeautfulToad
Posts: 395

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#34 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:38 am

Nidwin wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:24 am
BeautfulToad wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am


order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
I don't disagree with some of Aurandilaz / Wonshot's picks, but it just feels a lot of players have this perception.

I don't think there is a big difference between order/destro in warbands, but one thing makes me raise an eyebrow. The idea you would put chosen in a different tier from its mirror (or BW/Slayer in a different tier from its mirror) while having engi and magus in the same tier does not make a huge amount of sense to me. I think Engi is good, but Magus gives destro two ranged magic AoE specs, and the fact magus only needs to max int, while engi needs to max BS and WS, allows for a second viable Magus build.
No.
Path of the Grenadier is fully corporeal damage and does not require WS.
There's no tanky engi spec.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1773

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#35 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:49 pm

Arbich wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 am

Dps DoK in same category as dps WP? Dps Shaman and dps AM better than WE/WH? I think you have some clue about wb-play, but I don't get this list at all. Could you elaborate?
dps DoK mostly just brings hdbuff, and zealot does same and way way more. So it's "can do something but generally don't stack them"-class tier, maybe if you want to squeeze a meleetrain into p4
dps WP has some aoe, again not great, but can use heal morales + rez people, at least maybe they bring wounds buff, maybe again part of some niche p4 meleetrain experiment
dps Shaman, again kinda wasted, can bring insta rez, AoE Snare + very limited AoE in general, could pump in theory, could AP drain enemy main threat + assist from range to some extent, resis buff to party
dps AM, again pretty much wasted, insta rez, AoE snare, limited AoE, could try pumping while not spamming DoTs, could AP drain greatest enemy threat DPS, hdbuff on priority target, some range pressure, resis buff to party

C tier is "rather avoid" classes, but could do something in their niches if you somehow really really lacking better options

WE/WH issue is the 5ft range + having to pick a viable target within said 5ft range - all other classes above either can operate and do something either from long range, or medium range without needing to pick a target at close proximity. All while being able to offer some sort of utility tool that may serves some function in some situation, say aoe punt from keep walls, ranged pressure on priority target, kiting with snares, pumping morales, instarez, group utility via woundsbuff or resistances or DoK covenant for rest of party. (24 target EoV/FoDG is kinda interesting if firing off properly)
You could make the argument that dps DoK deserves higher rating - but again, if its only 1/4 of dpsZealot function, you'd just be better off with a zealot.

Before last nerf to Dragon Gun/OYK, I might just have them all dumped into same "meh"-tier, but now they got nerfed even more downwards. The 5ft range condition + light armor, and without charge (unless specced), is extremely punititive and considering the usual server lags, you can only pray that the target is anywhere close to 5ft when attempting the Slice/Razor spamming.
SW is a true special needs case, kotb does the crit buff with greater ease by simply existing, engi can spam Pierce Defences to even more people while also bringing some utility options. SW barely brings anything, not to forget abysmal AoE dmg pressure. Sure, they shine in 6v6, we all know that, but their warband options are between shooting wet noodles and holding banners so better classes can do even better.

You could probably just dump C + D tiers together, as in generally classes that just have bad time in proper largescale pvp.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#36 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:20 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:49 pm
Spoiler:
Arbich wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:18 am

Dps DoK in same category as dps WP? Dps Shaman and dps AM better than WE/WH? I think you have some clue about wb-play, but I don't get this list at all. Could you elaborate?
Spoiler:
dps DoK mostly just brings hdbuff, and zealot does same and way way more. So it's "can do something but generally don't stack them"-class tier, maybe if you want to squeeze a meleetrain into p4
dps WP has some aoe, again not great, but can use heal morales + rez people, at least maybe they bring wounds buff, maybe again part of some niche p4 meleetrain experiment
dps Shaman, again kinda wasted, can bring insta rez, AoE Snare + very limited AoE in general, could pump in theory, could AP drain enemy main threat + assist from range to some extent, resis buff to party
dps AM, again pretty much wasted, insta rez, AoE snare, limited AoE, could try pumping while not spamming DoTs, could AP drain greatest enemy threat DPS, hdbuff on priority target, some range pressure, resis buff to party

C tier is "rather avoid" classes, but could do something in their niches if you somehow really really lacking better options

WE/WH issue is the 5ft range + having to pick a viable target within said 5ft range - all other classes above either can operate and do something either from long range, or medium range without needing to pick a target at close proximity. All while being able to offer some sort of utility tool that may serves some function in some situation, say aoe punt from keep walls, ranged pressure on priority target, kiting with snares, pumping morales, instarez, group utility via woundsbuff or resistances or DoK covenant for rest of party. (24 target EoV/FoDG is kinda interesting if firing off properly)
You could make the argument that dps DoK deserves higher rating - but again, if its only 1/4 of dpsZealot function, you'd just be better off with a zealot.

Before last nerf to Dragon Gun/OYK, I might just have them all dumped into same "meh"-tier, but now they got nerfed even more downwards. The 5ft range condition + light armor, and without charge (unless specced), is extremely punititive and considering the usual server lags, you can only pray that the target is anywhere close to 5ft when attempting the Slice/Razor spamming.
SW is a true special needs case, kotb does the crit buff with greater ease by simply existing, engi can spam Pierce Defences to even more people while also bringing some utility options. SW barely brings anything, not to forget abysmal AoE dmg pressure. Sure, they shine in 6v6, we all know that, but their warband options are between shooting wet noodles and holding banners so better classes can do even better.

You could probably just dump C + D tiers together, as in generally classes that just have bad time in proper largescale pvp.
Still missing the point of why BOrk is rated above Chosen in WB environment. In the worst possible scenario they are the same tier, and definitely same tier than KotBS, both bringing exactly the same utilities to WB environment.

Look at it this way: Would you rate SM above KotBS? Cause that is very close to what you are doing. You are rating an insanely useful small scale tank above the top WB scale mechanic, auras.
Spoiler:

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#37 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:35 pm

Party cd decrease, aoe stat steal and 1200 dmg aoe silence (and self morale pump) is what makes bo a must have in every wb. You can throw in aoe snare (tho it's really meh), skull thumper for more pressure and st cd increase. I don't think that would put bo in the same tier as kotbs, but both are up there. Chosen is also a must have, wouldn't necessarily put him bellow bo though. They bring different types of utility.
Image

mubbl
Posts: 198

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#38 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:02 pm

BeautfulToad wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:13 am
mubbl wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:16 am


order has way better ability based dmg, there for you realy need to care when you spent your cc, cause you will need them when all the gingers come to get you :D
I don't disagree with some of Aurandilaz / Wonshot's picks, but it just feels a lot of players have this perception.

I don't think there is a big difference between order/destro in warbands, but one thing makes me raise an eyebrow. The idea you would put chosen in a different tier from its mirror (or BW/Slayer in a different tier from its mirror) while having engi and magus in the same tier does not make a huge amount of sense to me. I think Engi is good, but Magus gives destro two ranged magic AoE specs, and the fact magus only needs to max int, while engi needs to max BS and WS, allows for a second viable Magus build.
yes there is a difference, at least in close range bombing. why do you think everyone is saying bw or warter noodle? even you can surpress much dmg as destro, either cc or just flat dmg reduction via morals/skills.
engi is the only class on order side that is ahead in utility, amplyfies the main dmg source of bws by a good chunk and gives you lots of stuff to counter some nasty stuff. In addition engi is better in some important espactes of the class archtype. Both suffer in classmechanic draw backs (no aoe healing for pet).
in addition what nidwin mentioned earlier.
i am not in aurandilz guild and also not in Bomblings Guild, otherwise i would argue with them all day long. and my viewpoint of the game is not the same, for example if i wouldnt put bg/ib in different tiers, yet in that low tiers, and i would atleast put them in the same tier. also my guild dont have the same structure and maybe just simular goals.

edit p.s. there are okayish tanky engi specs, like how tanky you can get with lowest armor value armor archtype
Last edited by mubbl on Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1773

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#39 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:09 pm

Ototo wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:20 pm

Still missing the point of why BOrk is rated above Chosen in WB environment. In the worst possible scenario they are the same tier, and definitely same tier than KotBS, both bringing exactly the same utilities to WB environment.

Look at it this way: Would you rate SM above KotBS? Cause that is very close to what you are doing. You are rating an insanely useful small scale tank above the top WB scale mechanic, auras.
S + A are both the "backbone" of the warband, S is just best of the best, when it comes to picks, IMO.

What BORK brings;
-Block channel (100% block + dmg reflect shield on demand)
-Corp debuff (stacks with zealot)
-CD decreaser
-absorb bubble
-morale pump + M3 1200 5s aoe silence
-even more massive wounds potential than any other tank
-WS buff to mdps
-armor debuff for mdps assist (stacks with zealot)
-Skullthumper for assist mdps on priority targets
-resistance bellows, so can do same as Chosen Aurabot
-spamming Big Swing + Waaagh to proc Sorc procs + DoK procs ; generally more AoE pressure output than a Chosen can generate

The Chosen main purpose is to be the aurabot. But we can alternatively get resistance buff from zealot, Shaman, BORK, so it's not end of world if party is missing chosen. Toughness aura more often than not becomes a null sum game, where one party does X debuff and other side Y buff, and they mostly converge around + - 0 effect, or anyways relatively abysmal different. Sure its good to have it, again not too much of a issue if not. 3rd aura option is then either the AP aura (zealot AP ritual + DoK AP feed tactic), -25% heal aura (zealot hdbuff, don't stack), cast time increaser (mara aoe interrupt, and again you expect the enemy heals to be scattered anyway and running their own cast time decreasers, so again minimal effect). Or minor self heal aura. Magic dmg reflect aura shines vs BWs for sure, again not too many order wbs out with proper BW balls.
AoE stagger is good, but again often wasted due to all the aoe dmg flying around, and you have mara anyway going for the AoE KDs. AoE Woundsdebuff is nice, but end result is that it mostly just negates the WP woundsbuff.

Now I'm not saying Chosen is bad by any means, it's very much A-tier class; I'm just pointing at all the stuff BORK has, that brings even more value to the warband.
Ideally a wb setup it 4 chosen 4 borks, but if we start deviating from that, I'd prefer with 5 borks 3 chosens as next best alternative.
Both are very durable tanks, Bork just takes the "im da best" spot when it comes to extreme durability + utility package.


Also, I'm rating SM below Kotbs. Again both are S/A tier picks, SM brings Whispering Wind and absorb shield. And AoE knockback when its needed, or possible M2 Wings of Heaven utility with snare.
However Kotbs does bring a crit buff to party and also +15% healing to party, which has perfect synergy with RP+WP heal increase modifiers to make them must have in any party. Kotbs Vigilance is absurd good as well, and SM doesn't have the self block increaser that BORK hits to become immortal. There is also excellent synergy between Sorc-zealot-Bork corp resis debuffs + output, whereas SM lost their chance to debuff all resis and help BWs to face far less resis.
SM is excellent tank and I prefer playing it to my Kotb, but Kotb is IMO slightly better than SM when it comes to maxing warband tankiness and utility. (M3 1200, M4 solar flare option) Ideally you have however 4 kotb 4 Sms in a warband. But 5 kotbs 3 Sms is still pretty good pick as second best alternative.
Stagger has more value on kotbs due to Chosen vs Mara stagger vs KD immunities sharing. KOTB also gets Dirty Tricks + Focused Mending and a proper M3.

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Ototo
Posts: 1015

Re: Class Tier List (WB vs SC)

Post#40 » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:25 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:09 pm
(long post)
Let's say that I still prefer passives than actives for WB fight environment, but can see the potential of synchronized sinergies. Requires quite a training, but definitely looks well worth it.

I appreciate and respect your opinion. Thanks for the detailed point out.
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