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Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

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kmark101
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#21 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:52 pm

Problem with this whole crap imbalance is when you look at the actual class/builds that has the morale drains and you realize that it's on most popular destro class/builds, while it's not the case with order. THAT causes the worst imbalance.
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nebelwerfer
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#22 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:17 pm

marauder ability called "wave of terror", it has 40 ft frontal cone that prevents morale gain for 5 seconds to all who are hit

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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#23 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:59 pm

so much cherry picking ... if you give details you have to give all the info and not what supports your arugement and know the difference between the both sides and how its always been

Destro have always had advantage in morale department you know why?

because ORDER DO MORE RAW DAMAGE AND HEALING THAN DESTRO (and thats a undeniable fact), its the contrast in styles

just because you guys do not run the right classes to do more damage stop always with the obvious nerfbait ... just like you got destro raze bomb nerfed to m3

wp + healing, knight + healing

bw, procs and really high raw damage...


Destro has more utility, cc and morale as a counter...

you slowly want to chip away at that... over and over i hear same arguements but always being biased and not including all the info just to try and make your arugment stronger

Now if you talk about morales, maybe revert raze bomb to m2 and get rid of m2 dmg from sorcs... then okay you maybe have some merit to your argument with that

but ME ME ME ME ... nerf this, nerf that gets so old i am tired reading about it on forums all the time ...

or maybe just give order everything and i will swap and ride that train and not care about balance...

Yes some of the things are strong, but both sides have strong things and grass is always greener... if you play both sides and wasnt biased you would see this

So the more you tweak something and then radically remove something it creates snowball effect issues... Morales are a tricky department and big part of game and always see crazy ideas to nerf this and that and cherry pick without thinking about knock on effect in small and large scale and ultimately realm balance.

if you nerf this and that and want to mirror realms... then bw and wp needs to be seriously nerfed and you will see so much flame and crying on the forums... It would be same thing

Maybe if you use whats already available to you, instead of trying to force unnecessary changes you would have a better time. Or you want your cake, eat it, and the kitchen sink too while your at it?

if you make a legit argument, use the correct context for the love of *** ...

Change morales, you change everything, take away bw DPS makes other order dps viable... problem solved and you have just alienated entire BW playerbase and made more knock on effect problems that are unforseen

Also shaman morale pump is bad compared to AM... i see why you say its fair because AM is far superior because it can be co-ordinated... you can do it and kite... Shaman's need to waste 2 tactics (they already a weak healer) and need to be very engaged and less kiting... I can cherry pick too, but i don't because its idiotic and biased. When i say one side has things the other dont its things like the above... but do i make a big deal out of burning head and AM morale pump no I havent... I accepted it as viable tactic that phalanx use to do and pull off alot... and trust me i use to get sniped alot with it... Its part of the game.

So stop dividing community over toxic bs with serious undertones(which is obvious to see again and again)... you try provoke debate to get classes you do not like nerfed, instead of counter counter them and adapt. Or do you prefer if everything gets nerfed on both sides and everyone dislikes the direction of their classes?

I don't want to be your devil's advocat but don't throw stones in glasshouse.

Dev's get accused of bias by either side... spreading misinformation don't help that.

Why stop at morales, why not remove all skills and we just auto attack one another... :lol: :twisted: or make everyone a chicken in t4 and we peck each other to death... stop with agenda's unless you are going to include all facts instead of being blatant...

if removed sorc morale 2 then give them infernal wave how it use to be... the list can go on and on... don't make dev's job harder than it already is, their focus should be stable server and fixing cities at the moment and remember balancing is always finely tuned... you see what you want to see.

Its not like order are getting perma stomped... also destro have bigger guilds, that is bigger organised forces... not including pugs because pugs is very RNG and both sides have seriously whack compositions so that data is pretty useless when you have guards not guarding or other side of map and not with their own warband...

If one side was perma stomped and never died then maybe there would be a balance issue? order have defeatist mentality and also opportunist with campaign throwing zones to get easy defense wins by taking full advantage of fort mechanics... but that should have a impact on gameplay? Its swings and roundabouts goes back and forth its rvr its endless...

TL-DR read the part in caps and Nerf that... order do more raw damage and healing... or should if stacked and played right.
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Elvenis
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#24 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:12 pm

Wam wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:59 pm
so much cherry picking ... if you give details you have to give all the info and not what supports your arugement and know the difference between the both sides and how its always been

Destro have always had advantage in morale department you know why?

because ORDER DO MORE RAW DAMAGE AND HEALING THAN DESTRO (and thats a undeniable fact), its the contrast in styles

just because you guys do not run the right classes to do more damage stop always with the obvious nerfbait ... just like you got destro raze bomb nerfed to m3

wp + healing, knight + healing

bw, procs and really high raw damage...


Destro has more utility, cc and morale as a counter...

you slowly want to chip away at that... over and over i hear same arguements but always being biased and not including all the info just to try and make your arugment stronger

Now if you talk about morales, maybe revert raze bomb to m2 and get rid of m2 dmg from sorcs... then okay you maybe have some merit to your argument with that

but ME ME ME ME ... nerf this, nerf that gets so old i am tired reading about it on forums all the time ...

or maybe just give order everything and i will swap and ride that train and not care about balance...

Yes some of the things are strong, but both sides have strong things and grass is always greener... if you play both sides and wasnt biased you would see this

So the more you tweak something and then radically remove something it creates snowball effect issues... Morales are a tricky department and big part of game and always see crazy ideas to nerf this and that and cherry pick without thinking about knock on effect in small and large scale and ultimately realm balance.

if you nerf this and that and want to mirror realms... then bw and wp needs to be seriously nerfed and you will see so much flame and crying on the forums... It would be same thing

Maybe if you use whats already available to you, instead of trying to force unnecessary changes you would have a better time. Or you want your cake, eat it, and the kitchen sink too while your at it?

if you make a legit argument, use the correct context for the love of *** ...

Change morales, you change everything, take away bw DPS makes other order dps viable... problem solved and you have just alienated entire BW playerbase and made more knock on effect problems that are unforseen

Also shaman morale pump is bad compared to AM... i see why you say its fair because AM is far superior because it can be co-ordinated... you can do it and kite... Shaman's need to waste 2 tactics (they already a weak healer) and need to be very engaged and less kiting... I can cherry pick too, but i don't because its idiotic and biased. When i say one side has things the other dont its things like the above... but do i make a big deal out of burning head and AM morale pump no I havent... I accepted it as viable tactic that phalanx use to do and pull off alot... and trust me i use to get sniped alot with it... Its part of the game.

So stop dividing community over toxic bs with serious undertones(which is obvious to see again and again)... you try provoke debate to get classes you do not like nerfed, instead of counter counter them and adapt. Or do you prefer if everything gets nerfed on both sides and everyone dislikes the direction of their classes?

I don't want to be your devil's advocat but don't throw stones in glasshouse.

Dev's get accused of bias by either side... spreading misinformation don't help that.

Why stop at morales, why not remove all skills and we just auto attack one another... :lol: :twisted: or make everyone a chicken in t4 and we peck each other to death... stop with agenda's unless you are going to include all facts instead of being blatant...

if removed sorc morale 2 then give them infernal wave how it use to be... the list can go on and on... don't make dev's job harder than it already is, their focus should be stable server and fixing cities at the moment and remember balancing is always finely tuned... you see what you want to see.

Its not like order are getting perma stomped... also destro have bigger guilds, that is bigger organised forces... not including pugs because pugs is very RNG and both sides have seriously whack compositions so that data is pretty useless when you have guards not guarding or other side of map and not with their own warband...

If one side was perma stomped and never died then maybe there would be a balance issue? order have defeatist mentality and also opportunist with campaign throwing zones to get easy defense wins by taking full advantage of fort mechanics... but that should have a impact on gameplay? Its swings and roundabouts goes back and forth its rvr its endless...

TL-DR read the part in caps and Nerf that... order do more raw damage and healing... or should if stacked and played right.
I don't know how many will bare to read this all, i make a summary

Order classes are better (doesn't tell why), but Order players can't play

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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#25 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:29 pm

Elvenis wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:12 pm
Wam wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:59 pm
so much cherry picking ... if you give details you have to give all the info and not what supports your arugement and know the difference between the both sides and how its always been

Destro have always had advantage in morale department you know why?

because ORDER DO MORE RAW DAMAGE AND HEALING THAN DESTRO (and thats a undeniable fact), its the contrast in styles

just because you guys do not run the right classes to do more damage stop always with the obvious nerfbait ... just like you got destro raze bomb nerfed to m3

wp + healing, knight + healing

bw, procs and really high raw damage...


Destro has more utility, cc and morale as a counter...

you slowly want to chip away at that... over and over i hear same arguements but always being biased and not including all the info just to try and make your arugment stronger

Now if you talk about morales, maybe revert raze bomb to m2 and get rid of m2 dmg from sorcs... then okay you maybe have some merit to your argument with that

but ME ME ME ME ... nerf this, nerf that gets so old i am tired reading about it on forums all the time ...

or maybe just give order everything and i will swap and ride that train and not care about balance...

Yes some of the things are strong, but both sides have strong things and grass is always greener... if you play both sides and wasnt biased you would see this

So the more you tweak something and then radically remove something it creates snowball effect issues... Morales are a tricky department and big part of game and always see crazy ideas to nerf this and that and cherry pick without thinking about knock on effect in small and large scale and ultimately realm balance.

if you nerf this and that and want to mirror realms... then bw and wp needs to be seriously nerfed and you will see so much flame and crying on the forums... It would be same thing

Maybe if you use whats already available to you, instead of trying to force unnecessary changes you would have a better time. Or you want your cake, eat it, and the kitchen sink too while your at it?

if you make a legit argument, use the correct context for the love of *** ...

Change morales, you change everything, take away bw DPS makes other order dps viable... problem solved and you have just alienated entire BW playerbase and made more knock on effect problems that are unforseen

Also shaman morale pump is bad compared to AM... i see why you say its fair because AM is far superior because it can be co-ordinated... you can do it and kite... Shaman's need to waste 2 tactics (they already a weak healer) and need to be very engaged and less kiting... I can cherry pick too, but i don't because its idiotic and biased. When i say one side has things the other dont its things like the above... but do i make a big deal out of burning head and AM morale pump no I havent... I accepted it as viable tactic that phalanx use to do and pull off alot... and trust me i use to get sniped alot with it... Its part of the game.

So stop dividing community over toxic bs with serious undertones(which is obvious to see again and again)... you try provoke debate to get classes you do not like nerfed, instead of counter counter them and adapt. Or do you prefer if everything gets nerfed on both sides and everyone dislikes the direction of their classes?

I don't want to be your devil's advocat but don't throw stones in glasshouse.

Dev's get accused of bias by either side... spreading misinformation don't help that.

Why stop at morales, why not remove all skills and we just auto attack one another... :lol: :twisted: or make everyone a chicken in t4 and we peck each other to death... stop with agenda's unless you are going to include all facts instead of being blatant...

if removed sorc morale 2 then give them infernal wave how it use to be... the list can go on and on... don't make dev's job harder than it already is, their focus should be stable server and fixing cities at the moment and remember balancing is always finely tuned... you see what you want to see.

Its not like order are getting perma stomped... also destro have bigger guilds, that is bigger organised forces... not including pugs because pugs is very RNG and both sides have seriously whack compositions so that data is pretty useless when you have guards not guarding or other side of map and not with their own warband...

If one side was perma stomped and never died then maybe there would be a balance issue? order have defeatist mentality and also opportunist with campaign throwing zones to get easy defense wins by taking full advantage of fort mechanics... but that should have a impact on gameplay? Its swings and roundabouts goes back and forth its rvr its endless...

TL-DR read the part in caps and Nerf that... order do more raw damage and healing... or should if stacked and played right.
I don't know how many will bare to read this all, i make a summary

Order classes are better (doesn't tell why), but Order players can't play
ok mr smarty pants do i have ot paint it out for you because everyone should already know the basics

BW = more damage than sorc... its the top dog so its the best DPS, and its magical damage which tanks are less resistant too... (40% soft cap)
and they get morale damage and slayers do not...

knights aura... + healing to the party, chosens do not get such a thing its only to themselves

focussed mending 15% to group

exalted defenses +20% healing on wp on defend... which is easy consider high disrupt ...

+35% healing advantage for order over destruction...

Order players can play, but they do not stack everything and are spread out among various guilds...

So knight and WP ... (zealot and rp cancel each other out) +35% more healing bro

and BW being the best dps class ...

yes i am totally clueless and know nothing when it comes to rvr... i just pull magic numbers out of thin air and make argument for sake of arguement ...

These are the snowball effects i talk about when you start touching one area and leave alone another... that is not balance... so does order want to give up +35% healing and all the extra fire power for destro nerfs? I don't think they do... i am pretty sure they want to keep it, and get destro morale nerfed again... which they already nerfed tanks raze bomb.

The morale of the story is if you keep complaining and nerfing things or overly mirror... then you end up with a lesser version of the game and i am sure some of you won't be happy then either as it will never be enough. Instead of focus on what you have and using it "properly" before throwing out complaints... there's alot of experienced order players here who should know better and make a more balanced argument as its very convaluted and intertwined. But if you cherry pick you make it seem alot more simple than it really is, because you go into favourtism department. Oh this side is getting special treatment because they have XYZ... no this side has special treatment because it has XYZ... anyone can cherry pick to support a lop sided arguement but i rarely ever see someone talk impartially.

See you try to put words in my mouth... instead of read between the lines of common basic knowledge of such traits and stacking on order side... now come at me again and tell me i am wrong.
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wonshot
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#26 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:31 pm

@Wam not sure if your million "you's" are directed at me since I listed the abilities Tibdum asked for. But as I even acknowledged myself, yes Order does have way supperior Healing modifiers and more raw damage. And I even said myself that Burning head on BW makes very little sence when you look at howover stacked the class is, and no wonder it has remained top AOEdog on the role for so many years.

But at the same time you go on the same old song of "just use what you have available". And I will point at my example of why the WH morale drain mastery tactic should have a possitional requirement where as the Mara version has a stance requirement way easier to pull off. Now if we Imagine Order actually getting a viable moraledrain on a none-moraleability, that would mean all the 8 BWs you advice us to run would be replaced by some WH on DPS/Utility slots and there goes some of the advantage on raw damage, at the tradeoff for trying to battle the Destro moralepump advantage.

I dont personally want to get everything on Orderside, or destroside for that matter. I want a realmbalance where not just stacking BWs are optimal for competitive play.

As for the Shammy pump vs AM pump comparison, I think that is just an example of how unmirrored balance will look like. One is a singletarget heal you can use out of group, the other is a 2tactic setup giving your entire group some (morale damage 2hit attack buff if I am not mistaking) while giving them morale pump. Everything will be unballanced when unmirrored, this one just seems to be two very different versions on the edge what you can compare while still keeping them different from eachother. But I am just saying this because I am Order bias and this one happens to fall in Order favor right? :lol:

oh and since everything i admit about Order having supperior tools will get ignored anyways, where on earth did that Flashfire buff come from. That was huuuge and very unexpected / not "needed"
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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#27 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:52 am

wonshot wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:31 pm
@Wam not sure if your million "you's" are directed at me since I listed the abilities Tibdum asked for. But as I even acknowledged myself, yes Order does have way supperior Healing modifiers and more raw damage. And I even said myself that Burning head on BW makes very little sence when you look at howover stacked the class is, and no wonder it has remained top AOEdog on the role for so many years.

But at the same time you go on the same old song of "just use what you have available". And I will point at my example of why the WH morale drain mastery tactic should have a possitional requirement where as the Mara version has a stance requirement way easier to pull off. Now if we Imagine Order actually getting a viable moraledrain on a none-moraleability, that would mean all the 8 BWs you advice us to run would be replaced by some WH on DPS/Utility slots and there goes some of the advantage on raw damage, at the tradeoff for trying to battle the Destro moralepump advantage.

I dont personally want to get everything on Orderside, or destroside for that matter. I want a realmbalance where not just stacking BWs are optimal for competitive play.

As for the Shammy pump vs AM pump comparison, I think that is just an example of how unmirrored balance will look like. One is a singletarget heal you can use out of group, the other is a 2tactic setup giving your entire group some (morale damage 2hit attack buff if I am not mistaking) while giving them morale pump. Everything will be unballanced when unmirrored, this one just seems to be two very different versions on the edge what you can compare while still keeping them different from eachother. But I am just saying this because I am Order bias and this one happens to fall in Order favor right? :lol:

oh and since everything i admit about Order having supperior tools will get ignored anyways, where on earth did that Flashfire buff come from. That was huuuge and very unexpected / not "needed"
i say use what you have available because its not being used to its fullest then make a debate afterwards if things are too skewered one way or another...

another reason i say use whats available is because balance is complex... and a poisoned chalice, people seem to think its a quick fix and easy solution... i haven't seen anyone running fullstacks give feedback yet because most of order currently have 3fg issue at the moment. Large scale is designed around warbands. (also if you compare to some of destro wbs, they are larger than just a wb)

its order's biggest weapon and no one is using it completely, then you make balance complaints... that is what is annoying to read from my point of view... your strongest tool is just sitting there not being utilized and you complain to toolmaker instead of picking it up and using it... then giving fair feedback.

So the question is it balance related or optimization of order warbands? if no one runs orders strongest setup how can you answer the question fairly and complain about balance between realms? or is it about population numbers? Because that's a completely different question.

at the moment order win's alot of fort defences... and you see complaints about this, if destro was so OP why does it not always win? maybe just maybe things go both ways and order has strong classes too or you know they would lose every single time? you see the difference in kills usually on last stage... very stacked in order's favour, does that mean order need nerf?

If you nerf bw, you make order limp, because that is their playstyle/meta... it will take away their threat... if you overly buff other classes it can have unforseen issues so its a delicate issue that needs scapel rather than sledgehammer... nerfing destro who have already been nerfed is not answer either as you upset half your playerbase and give you everything on a plate, and also shows complaining gets positive results, like raze from tanks to m3, and sorcs getting m2... that is bad precedent which encourages toxic posts like this which split the community and lead to nothing positive. Instead of posts which can bring community together or atleast be impartial.

Knight - Best Tank (it improves healing to team)
BW - Best DPS
WP - Strongest Healer

you know from live how succesful traditional empire warband is... KN, RG/VII/Crimson all the best order warbands... all run bomb setup and was succesful.

So please tell me why destro is so op when order do 35% more group healing and also do more damage? Because you get caught with some CC or morale damage? that is a counter... and order do get morale too, i've been morale bombed many times... and expect many more in future too.

Mirrored game will be bad...

Both sides have some strengths...

and you's is aimed at order generally because this is not the first or 100th post on the topic... its over 9000 already, its stale and thats why i give my opinion instead of stay quiet on subject again... so the elephant in the room is addressed and not blantantly left out, the differences between realm and Strengths order get... that destro not... you want to take away some strengths of destro, and keep order's strengths is bad joke to me that is not balance... because when you address the topic of balance you have to take everything into account and not just straight on and conviently forget oh we get more healing, we get more damage... now we need to tweak the morale game even further until get more of upper hand.

Some parts have merit like sorc m2, but would need synergy with IW and Waaagh/CF back... that was the trade off back then on top of losing raze bomb to m3.

If you chip away at the core differences, you will really end up with a worse balance problem unless you go full on mirrored.
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Lorsten
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#28 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:06 am

Wow, another thread about orders hard life.

1. Run 3 groups, never even try to coordinate PUGs.
2. Get stomped by destro zerg
3. Cry on forums and discord about population, destro blobbing, destro morale pump/drain, marauders, zealot winds, melee squigs, sorcs m2, BOrcs, russian hackers, destro using doping or whatever will be next reason to whine.
4. Do nothing on your side, order is just sitting in keeps and wait for forts (why population there suddenly is pretty much even, compared to zones? lul).
5. Go to 1.

Destro has better morale-tools for open field. Does it mean destro>order as a realm? No.
Realm balance is fine, problem is some order players and streamers pushing for ideas of destro superiority over order by default, demoralizing order forces.
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Phantasm
Posts: 72

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#29 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:28 am

Is it only me got feeling that order HAVE to bring RIGHT classes to WB to counter ANY composition of destro WB? Point me useless class on destro which dont fit WB? Maybe except WE. Recently all I only hear order players roll wrong classes for mass WB, maybe its not players fault but a class concept in general?

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wonshot
Posts: 488

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#30 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:44 am

@Wam

Well it seems like there is some disagreement within your roster then https://imgur.com/a/S7PxiG8
:lol:

Anyways, bringing the fort situation into this is not exactly helping your arguement. Because who is pushing all these zones, in and outside of EU prime. Destro for the most part, so saying they are not winning is not quite factual. And as for Order, or destro for that matter, logging in just to defend a Fort when a @here tag comes off on a discord or they see someone stream an endzone, logging into take part in the fort will fill up the Fort to a degree where the endzone could possibly had been saved in the first place, had all these defenders turned up.

Standing in pug warbands with Rdps on a small ramp like in Stonewatch, or spamming Rain of Fire and Shells from engineers is for sure easier than coordinating a push into a cauldron fort. Especially when we are back to having the numbers restrictions on forts. Guess you were still on break when everyone could join, and people flocked to Destro to win forts with 100+aao for Order :) Had the momentum swung in Order's favor atm and they pushed forts constantly, im pretty sure we would see close to same Win/loss ratio in succesful captures.

As I said in my first comment in this topic, I don't think destro shouldn't have morale advantage because of the Order strengths (as you mention too) to even out the playingfield in an unmirrored balance.
That being said, Destro-mains keep agreeing to how obscure the realmbalance is atm. And while I absolutely agree that changes can have a massive butterfly effect with unknown consequences, doesnt change the issue of Order guilds can't field full organized warbands atm. I've been head of the recruitment department for a time being and i'll call it as I see it. Class divercity is what really halts this process, too many rejections are given out and people stop applying because you come off as Elitist when only asking for Empire core and BWs to put it black and white.

But having a full roster after you returned, playing on the (current) dominant side with wiggleroom on composition for days, I can see how that might be fun for a bit and understand why you feel so defensive about this topic. Have fun rolfstomping 3FG curse-guilds with your advantages :lol:

... Again where on earth did that Flashfire buff come from. PogChamp
Last edited by wonshot on Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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