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Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

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Lorsten
Posts: 18

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#31 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:44 am

Phantasm wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:28 am
Is it only me got feeling that order HAVE to bring RIGHT classes to WB to counter ANY composition of destro WB? Point me useless class on destro which dont fit WB? Maybe except WE. Recently all I only hear order players roll wrong classes for mass WB, maybe its not players fault but a class concept in general?
Emmmm? You assume destro can counter any order wb with random setup? Or what is the question?
Ofc order has to make different setups against different destro WB. Works both ways. Drain maras counter typical BW setup, but maras countered by mellee-oriented order setup (slayer based), who can burst heals. Sorc-oriented WB is countered by BW minmax setup, just cuz BW bombs way harder than sorc. It has been the same situation for ages, and its the same now.
Anyway this is theory in vacuum, in oRvR its about numbers and WB's coordinating with each other.
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Jeliel80
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#32 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:56 am

ALL the potential partial order advantages are kinda meaningless (slight more damage, more passive/powered healing), when the whole game revolves around morale though.

All the potential mdps melee composition (or mix ranged/mdps) are COMPLETELY denied, by correctly pressing 1 broken button (yeah WoI) and going toe to toe/stacking is suicidal with mara drain/displacements cause you lose the morale fight and die.

So in the end yes, the answer to everything is usually BWs, kiting, ST assists, etc. (we have already been doing it for a while).

So order is stuck into 1 single good/viable dps (and cheesy composition/tactic imho), and you don't see a balancing problem in the game...


TBH, on a side note, I'd love the removal of direct aoe dmg Morale and obviously a re-balancing of raw DAMAGE / HEALING values (and modifiers), but that's just a dream.
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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#33 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:57 am

Phantasm wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:28 am
Is it only me got feeling that order HAVE to bring RIGHT classes to WB to counter ANY composition of destro WB? Point me useless class on destro which dont fit WB? Maybe except WE. Recently all I only hear order players roll wrong classes for mass WB, maybe its not players fault but a class concept in general?
Its true... they have to be super rigid setup and that is part of the problem, guilds struggle to achieve or maintain such setups because its so niche, Destro has more flexbility in the dps department as there is not one class that rules them all... you want a mix, on order you want a stack.

So the player pool is only a certain size, order dps players split between their respective classes... and not stacked in the BW department(which are divided amonst serveral guilds), so multiple guilds struggle to get enough BW to reach critical mass... its two different stories below critical mass and above...

Order have alot of WL/WH/SW dps players, also a huge amount of engi's... which takes away from the BW pool of players, WL/WH/SW are great in small scale, but in large pretty obsolete because they have to compete with BW and BW is king and always has been.

Destro don't have a king besides Ocara, so it is more flexible because of that and so got access to more player pool for large scale and can run varied styles easier because it doesnt need to be as specific.

Then you also have the burnout effect to of BW, where order really only have one meta, people get tired of that style after awhile but its by far the most effective...

Its a design issue from start of game life cycle making empire op and pigeon hole them.
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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#34 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:57 am

wonshot wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 6:44 am
@Wam

Well it seems like there is some disagreement within your roster then https://imgur.com/a/S7PxiG8
:lol:

Anyways, bringing the fort situation into this is not exactly helping your arguement. Because who is pushing all these zones, in and outside of EU prime. Destro for the most part, so saying they are not winning is not quite factual. And as for Order, or destro for that matter, logging in just to defend a Fort when a @here tag comes off on a discord or they see someone stream an endzone, logging into take part in the fort will fill up the Fort to a degree where the endzone could possibly had been saved in the first place, had all these defenders turned up.

Standing in pug warbands with Rdps on a small ramp like in Stonewatch, or spamming Rain of Fire and Shells from engineers is for sure easier than coordinating a push into a cauldron fort. Especially when we are back to having the numbers restrictions on forts. Guess you were still on break when everyone could join, and people flocked to Destro to win forts with 100+aao for Order :) Had the momentum swung in Order's favor atm and they pushed forts constantly, im pretty sure we would see close to same Win/loss ratio in succesful captures.

As I said in my first comment in this topic, I don't think destro shouldn't have morale advantage because of the Order strengths (as you mention too) to even out the playingfield in an unmirrored balance.
That being said, Destro-mains keep agreeing to how obscure the realmbalance is atm. And while I absolutely agree that changes can have a massive butterfly effect with unknown consequences, doesnt change the issue of Order guilds can't field full organized warbands atm. I've been head of the recruitment department for a time being and i'll call it as I see it. Class divercity is what really halts this process, too many rejections are given out and people stop applying because you come off as Elitist when only asking for Empire core and BWs to put it black and white.

But having a full roster after you returned, playing on the (current) dominant side with wiggleroom on composition for days, I can see how that might be fun for a bit and understand why you feel so defensive about this topic. Have fun rolfstomping 3FG curse-guilds with your advantages :lol:

... Again where on earth did that Flashfire buff come from. PogChamp
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion we are not all robots... I haven't lead a full stack on order since changes, and i havent seen anyone else lead a full stack yet... but the potential is there, thats why its hard to understand these complaints until its tried and tested properly, I am curious how well full stack can operate before knee jerk change status quo.

I think the conversation is more about critical mass or population balance... than "realm balance" order guilds struggle to get the right amount of firepower stacked, and its not easy limited player pool, limited amount of bw spread out. But if and when that changes it should be a different story no? Will we get same complaints, will we get self admissions about balance?

Forts order throw alot of zones to get to defend forts, and usually win if semi organised unless against big organised forces like FMJ spearheading it from what ive seen so far or if its really late NA and they simply just don't have the numbers to defend (bad setup 1 healer party and maybe just one wb against three or more)

If you read some of my posts in the past, maybe long time ago i was champion of order diversity but options limited... maybe it was in my order pug guide or could of been another thread to help out order when they was getting butchered and defeatist in the past (and we swapped sides to help them in dire times and its not easy to run guild on both sides also, and its not appreciated also... people might thank you in the moment but then get short or selective memories)

So my point is why complain about destro strengths, when order are not fully utilizing their own? If you take away any more destro strengths... bare in mind IW/Waagh/CF combo got nerfed, and m2 Raze got nerfed which was a heavy nerf for destro... and then order start utilizing their strength it will be a blood bath.

Order use to have a very pug/zerg friendly mentality long time ago, casual anti guild approach previous guilds before yours had same issues... good quality and friendly didn't matter... or hardcore and elitest all suffered the same fate on order.

We have had similar issues in the past too so i know how it is and part of that is small player pool, some people prefer sc, small scale, some already in a guild, some like more casual or pug etc... there was really lack of incentives to join guilds besides some who want the large scale fights... then there is people who join and never show up so your potential player pool gets even smaller and when you need to run a more rigid setup you feel it.

Destro been our mains if you know our history, didn't know which side was dominant... don't take much joy out of winning by default, can only play whats infront of us, if we have good setup and focussed then we are competetive or should be... there is alot of variables in rvr. Not against leading on order eventually just preference is destro, mains and flexibility, system change with lockouts, we use to scout zones a hour before raid then make decision 5 minutes before start which side to pick (which was also a headache) to choose underdog to get most action if one side was overly zerging we would punish them... now with locks hands are more tied to be aao police and shouldn't have too... but it is how it is.

My opinion is both sides have strong tools and different playstyles, order is rigid (makes it rougher on organising/setup) destro has bigger guilds, pnp and fmj are bigger than us, and we are bigger than order's biggest guild... so that is not a realm balance but a critical mass issue in my opinion. we raid certain days that might be changed to get more order action... no idea pnp/fmj schedule, both nice committed leaders but we don't talk as much as you think we do... i am focussed more internally than externally when leading. If they are not around it means more action for us and vice versa sometimes we step on each others toes over scraps if order are not dominant which i don't think anybody enjoys.

Order generally running 18+ and comparing to people who run 24-48? that is a big contrast... and then variables of adds either side makes it even more messy. Now imagine if order was the side with big guilds and running 24-48 and against destro's who are only 3fg... then would you have same discussion about realm balance? Also co-operation, I think fmj and pnp are alliance and other destro pugs try work together... not sure how co-operation is completely from pugs and guilds on order side but i don't think it is as tight as that alliance. We are loners looking for fights, not against helping from time to time either if its main way to provoke a fight because order are usually bunkered in keeps or spawns and sometimes i understand this when serverly outnumbered(under old rules would switch) but other times when we have aao and still bunkering its hard to understand.
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wonshot
Posts: 530

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#35 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:20 pm

@WamBam
So an other "go look at our past" lecture and "it hasnt been tried and tested" huh
Heres some more recent storytime for you,
We ran 24v24 on this patch-level vs 3 different destro guilds. with 24aoe cap and natural morale tick rate changed, we have seen how 8BW burning heads work (alliance wb with Ole), we have felt how a 24man Winds of Insanity works(Roaming & 24v24), how 9cap solarflare was an absolute must to change on day1, but this was never further followed through.

And from day one of the 24cap we voiced our concern about how some of these tools, on both realms, just upscaled too powerfully. 5sec aoe stagger on 24 people, 24solarflare, AM M2 24people, winds of insanity 24people etc.


And in my last posts I keep making comments about how some of the tools on even my main career felt misplaced and should be spread out to other careers or not been buffed, as it just make the whole situation worse being this overstacked.

Now, ofc running 2-3FG vs full warbands is gonna be close to impossible, no question about it! we still see more and more Destro guilds return or start, while the Orderguilds are still hard-stuck in the 3FG curse. And its been like that for months, yes some of it has to do with private server and low pop. But some of it absolutely also has to do with the limmited options on Order, plus destro dominance and flexability.

So while population and domiance might swift back and forth between the realms, the advantages for Destro on both utility, displacement and morale pump+drain just doesnt even out the score, when morales are an overshadowing wincondition atm.

Now for the record, I dont think anyone can match TUP in the quality of players on their roster and the leadership might be the most experienced there is on the server. But these balance factors are out of scale atm. And I think City sieges will finally show it for real when its even numbers largescale fighting, and if theres any Order left lol.
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Tanski
Posts: 79

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#36 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 1:34 pm

Morales in general just need to be looked at. Obviously, destro can’t compete with a min/maxed order warband in terms of utility/healing/dmg. Frankly, the core order mirrors are just plain better for wb play.That being said, I was an advocate for the Mara drain before being on the receiving end. That **** is broke. When the whole game revolves around who gets to m2 first, that in and of itself is a problem. Losing half a bar of morale in one second to two maras spamming aoe is a problem . It doesn’t matter what order does, you can’t compete with that. As far as kiting, destro has a better toolset to kite imo, so that doesn’t really solve the problem either. So there is not counterplay, while there is counter play to orders statistical advantages, which is kiting. Sorcs are more mobile than bw and have longer range on aoe, melee squigs can get creative with their pounce and aoe, choppa pull, shaman sticky feetz. If you take an unbiased look at wb balance right now, you see glaring issues. Also, I think it’s important to keep emotion out of your discussion as it makes you seem unintelligent.

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Detangler
Posts: 256

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#37 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 2:30 pm

Man it's weird reading about the "massive destro zerg" when for the past 1.5 years it's been nothing but order with the massive numbers advantage day in and day out, early, primetime and late night. Threads back then were all the opposite - "order is OP," "order has the best class mirrors," etc.

Maybe the frustration of getting stomped by larger numbers is the real problem, and this whole thread is just the scapegoat? Or maybe they should just nerf the over the top WL single target burst damage and give them another aoe attack for WB play so people stop making these threads....
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Wam
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#38 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 10:46 pm

@bombling
Spoiler:
The best is subjective, everyone is good at different things in my opinion, in our prime yes one of the best if not the best... right now it depends on setup and focus to be honest. Anyone is killable its rvr alot of variables. I think we are competetive but I also miss old campaign and more open field fights/action and if one side dominates too much then you get even less of this and becomes a bit tedious at times compared to the past more constant flow of action and forts are mostly to blame for alot of problems in rvr. If a fort happens before your raid it can kill pop, it happens as you start then maybe not much to do... and happens later on during raid then it depends who is organised on both sides. Forts are a likely legitimate candidate to blame for the realm pop issues too as people want their shiny gear which is locked via campaign. That's why we seriously consider swapping to order again to balance things out if it stays like it is, even though i am not a huge fan of that playstyle or looks of order... just to get more action and make things more fair.

It was same once upon a time when TUP,NRM and Porn Factory was playing at the same time on destro... pretty much needed all of order to compete with that so sometimes swapped to fight our frenemies.

From historical times of what i can remember from my point of view about order but its all subjective
The best at trying things = Cntk
The best at co-ordinating and kiting = Zerg
The best at blobbing = Rusblob > Cature
The best at bombing = VII
The best at sniping = bitterstones :evil:
The best pug leader = Erihon
The best at AAO police = TUP
(and i was on break when DND active so cant speak for that... and maybe honourable mention to lnm and beavers too)

I know you guys probably get frustrated being run over by bigger numbers at times or fights interupted etc (its kind of the life of the underdog)... but would you prefer that or lack of enemies to fight? both have pro's and con's. Eventually the pendulum swings like it has before multiple times. Maybe new gear release soon does that too?

That one day when there was 300+ Destro in KV... made me want to be on other side if no locks, but also you do get punished if you are succesful then zerg show up and follow you... if you want to get invader gear hard to do in primetime eu as a guild.

@detangler
Spoiler:
AOE wl... would make another order dps class viable... they have too much wasted slot when you are talking about proper large scale fighting. It would allow order to run SL/WL melee train, which should help their recruitment of players as its from 2 dps spots and not just one... and also people tired of bombing meta. It would of atleast gave them a choice/option.

SW/WL/WH vs Welf are junk in large scale if compared to superior dps class of their respective realms. WH vs Welf cancel each other out and they are very niche, you can take one but there are better choices. so order are 2 dps classes down in large scale... that is wasted player pool and if you are underdog faction you feel it more. (before any SW/WL/WH/Welf players get their feelings hurt, its not a dig at individual skill level its just harsh reality of class mechanics, its opportunity cost and you cannot compare to a BW or Mara) If you are lucky you get one spot per one of these niche classes and then you are sub optimal setup too.

In open field won't do much, in forts they can do a little behind safety of wall but not compared to slayer/engi/bw... it just compounds the previously discussed issues of the dreaded 3fg curse. Too easy for the BW well to be dried up when every order guild needs them to be competitive. Opening up WL, opens up Slayer, and opens up Ib's and all of a sudden more players and classes are viable and reduces the constant demand of BW. Then maybe you would have some guilds with melee, some with bomb instead of stuck in between and falling just short of critical mass required... then you could really start to see and discuss realm balance more properly if there was multiple guilds running full stacks to a decent level and then you could evaluate more data with rock,paper,scissors in contrast of styles but more often than not it will usually come down to who has most numbers.
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Fey
Posts: 428

Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#39 » Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 pm

Defensive morales have already been significantly nerfed, specifically Mountain Spirit and 1001 Blessings. If these had their original duration of 30 seconds they would be viable for a fort lord room push. At 10 seconds no thinking RP would take Mountain Spirit. These morale nerfs make direct-damage morales look that much better.

One of the great appeals of WaR aka RoR is the highly varied synergy between abilities, tactics, and morales. If you go mucking around more with morale abilities you're going to lose additional players who want the old game. The RoR team has already gone way way, holy crap way, too far with the needless changes. If you wholesale nerf DD morales you will lose more players who want the old game like myself.

Posts like these where people endlessly lament the so called, iwin, nature of morale abilities are not helpful imo. If you hate morale abilities go play classic.
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Re: Morale / AP Drain / Pumps

Post#40 » Fri Jan 24, 2020 5:06 am

Fey wrote:
Thu Jan 23, 2020 11:21 pm
Spoiler:
Defensive morales have already been significantly nerfed, specifically Mountain Spirit and 1001 Blessings. If these had their original duration of 30 seconds they would be viable for a fort lord room push. At 10 seconds no thinking RP would take Mountain Spirit. These morale nerfs make direct-damage morales look that much better.

One of the great appeals of WaR aka RoR is the highly varied synergy between abilities, tactics, and morales. If you go mucking around more with morale abilities you're going to lose additional players who want the old game. The RoR team has already gone way way, holy crap way, too far with the needless changes. If you wholesale nerf DD morales you will lose more players who want the old game like myself.

Posts like these where people endlessly lament the so called, iwin, nature of morale abilities are not helpful imo. If you hate morale abilities go play classic.
Given the state of the morales you've mentioned... just turning them and their likes into some -%dmg against morales specifically would make them a thousand times more appealing, you wouldn't mess with other morales or introduce a mess that'd impact smallscale (effectively moving a problem from one format to another, without fixing any bit of it), whilst moving the counter to morale abilities into player's hand (in a more obvious fashion; bluntly spelled out), instead of forcing it through the treatment (i.e.: new instant morales, change of placements; M2<->M3, change of durations, morale gains, ...) that got us into this place to begin with.

{snip, terrible idea in hindsight}

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