DPS DOK NERF

[wachlarz]

Hehehe when i read this i think 6 BW are less important then 1 dps runic. Lutz new 6 mdok wb meta to couter 6 bw ended before start And all the time i think main factor was morale bomb. But noo hd its king. Who need hd in wb ppl ? U die from raw dmg/morale

[madrocks]

Hehehe when i read this i think 6 BW are less important then 1 dps runic. Lutz new 6 mdok wb meta to couter 6 bw ended before start And all the time i think main factor was morale bomb. But noo hd its king. Who need hd in wb ppl ? U die from raw dmg/morale

What are you possibly talking about..

I hope staff never takes feedback from this kind of people serious.

[wachlarz]

Hehehe when i read this i think 6 BW are less important then 1 dps runic. Lutz new 6 mdok wb meta to couter 6 bw ended before start And all the time i think main factor was morale bomb. But noo hd its king. Who need hd in wb ppl ? U die from raw dmg/morale

What are you possibly talking about..

I hope staff never takes feedback from this kind of people serious.

Me too

[madrocks]

Hehehe when i read this i think 6 BW are less important then 1 dps runic. Lutz new 6 mdok wb meta to couter 6 bw ended before start And all the time i think main factor was morale bomb. But noo hd its king. Who need hd in wb ppl ? U die from raw dmg/morale

What are you possibly talking about..

I hope staff never takes feedback from this kind of people serious.

Me too

I clearly missed the joke, did I?

[anarchypark]

fell sacrifice - 24sec duration aoe dot. no CD.
It was primary skill to spread aoe heal debuff, in my case. ( EL 2nd )
fire and forget. spammable if cleansed.
24s is one of longest duration in RoR.
can any of you justify that it's ok?

I guess there's 1 case.
- it's only wb tool dps dok have

it's excuse to face away from issue that skill+tactic was overperforming.
it's not a reason to have OP combo.

WL was same.
over performance in small scale shouldn't be justified by lack of wb spot.

I think they looked entire forest including wb, 6:6, 1:1 and tracked issues down individually.

It'll take at least 1 week to see the result.
gather evidence of how missing aoe dd + heal debuff turns out.
you may have chance to revert it with constructive feedback.

i would forget about aoe dot+heal debuff though.

[madrocks]

I'm not here to really participate in the discussion, just to give out the simple answers that seem to be lacking. Seems like a lot of tinfoil going on here about intentions all over the place, things are probably not as complicated as you're reading into it.

By itself, a tactic that reads
"Each time you crit, apply a 5s (or 10s) 50% heal debuff on your target."
is pretty damn good.

Does that need to apply on AOE to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.
Does it need to apply on DoT ticks to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.

Tell me what class would not trade an existing tactic in their tree for it? None. It's an extremely valuable tactic that is a massive boon for any class that can remotely hit a target (i.e. all of them).

Why does it exist with the ability to land on AoE's and DoT ticks?

It shouldn't. Even without that capability it's still a very powerful and enviable tactic.

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

Maybe one day, but not today. Probably not any time soon.

Leaving a tactic that is (post nerf) very powerful in an even more powerful state to prop up an underwhelming spec is not balanced, it's biased. Good enough for me and not for thee, or however the saying goes.

Wild exaggerations about how a primarily single target class has been killed, or a kind of meh dps spec has been killed, due to a very strong tactic being made slightly less strong, is really what gets me wound up. So hey, if it kills the class, so be it. Start retiring boys, you can turn in your books, blades, and skulls at my desk. Maybe some will stay and adapt and give some feedback grounded in reality.

Look Wargrimm, I understand that it seems overpowered to have the DOK cast an AOE heal debuff with Essence lash/Devouring Essence/Fell Sacrifice, but it's not.
It seems out of line because it simply hits 24 targets. That could be easy fixed without scrapping the whole thing, don't you agree?

It is a bad idea do remove the possibility to aoe heal debuff from the game.

[Ototo]

Spoiler:

I'm not here to really participate in the discussion, just to give out the simple answers that seem to be lacking. Seems like a lot of tinfoil going on here about intentions all over the place, things are probably not as complicated as you're reading into it.

By itself, a tactic that reads
"Each time you crit, apply a 5s (or 10s) 50% heal debuff on your target."
is pretty damn good.

Does that need to apply on AOE to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.
Does it need to apply on DoT ticks to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.

Tell me what class would not trade an existing tactic in their tree for it? None. It's an extremely valuable tactic that is a massive boon for any class that can remotely hit a target (i.e. all of them).

Why does it exist with the ability to land on AoE's and DoT ticks?

It shouldn't. Even without that capability it's still a very powerful and enviable tactic.

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

Maybe one day, but not today. Probably not any time soon.

Leaving a tactic that is (post nerf) very powerful in an even more powerful state to prop up an underwhelming spec is not balanced, it's biased. Good enough for me and not for thee, or however the saying goes.

Wild exaggerations about how a primarily single target class has been killed, or a kind of meh dps spec has been killed, due to a very strong tactic being made slightly less strong, is really what gets me wound up. So hey, if it kills the class, so be it. Start retiring boys, you can turn in your books, blades, and skulls at my desk. Maybe some will stay and adapt and give some feedback grounded in reality.

Look Wargrimm, I understand that it seems overpowered to have the DOK cast an AOE heal debuff with Essence lash/Devouring Essence/Fell Sacrifice, but it's not.
It seems out of line because it simply hits 24 targets. That could be easy fixed without scrapping the whole thing, don't you agree?

It is a bad idea do remove the possibility to aoe heal debuff from the game.

Explain why without using the expression "order overpowered healing", which is far from accurate to start with and normally resort to formulae based in all planets and stars align during a blue moon on the 24th of a month. Like seriously, I have read in this thread that must stay cause is about the SM tactic making him heal 100% more, when under the effects of WP defense tactic, AM tactic, KotBS tactic, and RP whatever. Guess order will use no DPSs and SMs will simply run naked around. SMs can't be killed apparently without the DoK tactic affecting all people, even though the guy getting the ultra heals is a single target that can be targeted post-"nerf" for the heal debuff still, but pay no attention to that, too much logic for this thread full of feelings. Too many people about to lose their precious OP toy.

[Omegus]

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

FYI the ability for the Zealot/RP to stat swap was introduced 2 years after the game launched. The Rune Priest gained something out of it (nothing was replaced - it just got a new skill) but the Zealot lost it's original Harbinger of Doom mechanic which angered most of the existing DPS zealots (all 3 of them. I kid...). The announcement of the new skill came with the news that Zealot tactics would be changed to work with the new version of HoD and that the Rune Priest would get some tactics modified to tie into the new system. Guess what? There are no tactics for either class that work with the new ability.

The purpose of HoD/RoB being introduced was to try and give these two classes the ability to do what you say they can do (a copy of the announcement is here: https://runetwisting.blogspot.com/2010/ ... s-for.html). The problem is that the end result still failed to achieve what Mythic wanted. There are many reasons for this:

1) Poor base damage
2) Poor intel scaling
3) No tactics reworked to use the new ability (i.e. does X when in damage mod and does Y when in healing mode) so you're losing out on 1-4 tactic slots when you switch mode
4) Lacklusture damage tactics so even if you did want to use them there wasn't much worth taking... except for the heal debuff combined with AoE skills
5) Mostly uninspired damage skills
6) No conversion of renown spec
7) If you leave the DPS mode you're locked out of it for 20 seconds. If I could switch back and forth at will (still losing a GCD) then you still have the other issues above to deal with.

There are other issues from poorly thought out Mythic changes still affecting the classes as well. Willpower and healing crit was removed from their lifetap abilities but their base damage, scaling or conversion % wasn't adjusted. When the AoE damage reduction introduced on live the Zealot's AoE skills** went from sometimes useful for actual damage to utility only (and that utility was... proccing the AoE heal debuff and/or knockback from Chaotic Agitiation). And of course, the many broken Zealot abilities on RoR (I don't know about the Rune Priest) which don't get any dev time. One such ability that is silently broken at the moment is Harbinger of Doom itself and if the Zealot player isn't aware of it and how to fix it then they will be running around with nerfed stats.

We are fully aware that Zealots and RPs can stat swap as we play the class. What doesn't get listened to is that this ability wasn't fit for purpose when Mythic introduced it, didn't get the intended support of redesigning tactics for it, actually killed more "DPS" Zealot specs than it helped create, locks you out of one spec if you dare change for a moment (which defeats the point of being able to stat swap in combat) and even if none of that was true it's been bugged for months (and on/off bugged for years) on RoR anyway. On paper it looks good, but when you look at the class as a whole it doesn't achieve what Mythic wanted it to do. If it did then you would actually see people using it outside of the super niche aoe heal debuff spec (and even then it's not done for damage purposes but to get crit and disrupt-strikethrough) which is about to be removed anyway.

Please stop looking at a tactic in isolation and look at how the classes can actually make use of it. The Zealot/RP having such a good tactic was already balanced by the difficulty they had making full use of it in AoE situations, the setup it required (as mentioned by other players often needing multiple players to coordinate it), etc. On the other hand this tactic on the DoK or on other classes would be incredibly OP.

If you're changing it to allow RP/Zealot to apply a single target heal debuff on crit from range then you might as well take a Squig for the role instead. Rotten Arrer is spamable and doesn't require a crit to trigger (only an ailment which are very easy to apply and can come from any source), can be specced for 100ft range (110ft with Gas Squig?) and can be cast on the move.

[madrocks]

Spoiler:

I'm not here to really participate in the discussion, just to give out the simple answers that seem to be lacking. Seems like a lot of tinfoil going on here about intentions all over the place, things are probably not as complicated as you're reading into it.

By itself, a tactic that reads
"Each time you crit, apply a 5s (or 10s) 50% heal debuff on your target."
is pretty damn good.

Does that need to apply on AOE to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.
Does it need to apply on DoT ticks to be damn good? No. It's still damn good.

Tell me what class would not trade an existing tactic in their tree for it? None. It's an extremely valuable tactic that is a massive boon for any class that can remotely hit a target (i.e. all of them).

Why does it exist with the ability to land on AoE's and DoT ticks?

It shouldn't. Even without that capability it's still a very powerful and enviable tactic.

Yes DPS spec'd rp/z are a strange and underwhelming bunch. It's difficult to play, and wastes to some degree their exceptional healing capability (some would call them top tier healers even). What conveniently gets ignored while pearl clutching about muh dps spec, is their ability to swap back and forth between really good (stat of choice) and pretty good (mirrored stat of choice) whether that's intelligence or willpower.

They do not have a specific heal or DPS tree. They were not designed this way, and it would take the entire unholy reckoning of rebuilding the entire set of trees to put them into these cute little heal/dps/lol buckets. Why aren't you a REAL dps spec that can compete with DPS classes? Because of that. You can't be. You're simply both. You have ALWAYS been like this, for 12 years or so.

Maybe one day, but not today. Probably not any time soon.

Leaving a tactic that is (post nerf) very powerful in an even more powerful state to prop up an underwhelming spec is not balanced, it's biased. Good enough for me and not for thee, or however the saying goes.

Wild exaggerations about how a primarily single target class has been killed, or a kind of meh dps spec has been killed, due to a very strong tactic being made slightly less strong, is really what gets me wound up. So hey, if it kills the class, so be it. Start retiring boys, you can turn in your books, blades, and skulls at my desk. Maybe some will stay and adapt and give some feedback grounded in reality.

Look Wargrimm, I understand that it seems overpowered to have the DOK cast an AOE heal debuff with Essence lash/Devouring Essence/Fell Sacrifice, but it's not.
It seems out of line because it simply hits 24 targets. That could be easy fixed without scrapping the whole thing, don't you agree?

It is a bad idea do remove the possibility to aoe heal debuff from the game.

Explain why without using the expression "order overpowered healing", which is far from accurate to start with and normally resort to formulae based in all planets and stars align during a blue moon on the 24th of a month. Like seriously, I have read in this thread that must stay cause is about the SM tactic making him heal 100% more, when under the effects of WP defense tactic, AM tactic, KotBS tactic, and RP whatever. Guess order will use no DPSs and SMs will simply run naked around. SMs can't be killed apparently without the DoK tactic affecting all people, even though the guy getting the ultra heals is a single target that can be targeted post-"nerf" for the heal debuff still, but pay no attention to that, too much logic for this thread full of feelings. Too many people about to lose their precious OP toy.

Ottoto, nobody is saying that Order/Destro heals are overpowered.
The point of having AOE Heal Debuffs is to have valid alternatives to create pressure instead of just aoe moral dumping.

[Ototo]

Spoiler:

Look Wargrimm, I understand that it seems overpowered to have the DOK cast an AOE heal debuff with Essence lash/Devouring Essence/Fell Sacrifice, but it's not.
It seems out of line because it simply hits 24 targets. That could be easy fixed without scrapping the whole thing, don't you agree?

It is a bad idea do remove the possibility to aoe heal debuff from the game.

Explain why without using the expression "order overpowered healing", which is far from accurate to start with and normally resort to formulae based in all planets and stars align during a blue moon on the 24th of a month. Like seriously, I have read in this thread that must stay cause is about the SM tactic making him heal 100% more, when under the effects of WP defense tactic, AM tactic, KotBS tactic, and RP whatever. Guess order will use no DPSs and SMs will simply run naked around. SMs can't be killed apparently without the DoK tactic affecting all people, even though the guy getting the ultra heals is a single target that can be targeted post-"nerf" for the heal debuff still, but pay no attention to that, too much logic for this thread full of feelings. Too many people about to lose their precious OP toy.

Ottoto, nobody is saying that Order/Destro heals are overpowered.
The point of having AOE Heal Debuffs is to have valid alternatives to create pressure instead of just aoe moral dumping.

I can see that point and respect it, but this skill performance was far from the accurate answer. It was simply abused and what's not, and that is why it is tuned down to a correct base. You can't simply mix the amount of sh*t that the DoK has with an AoE brutal debuff. Would be like taking out the defense reduction of Focused Offense.

Make a proposal accordingly and I will be glad to support a decent change in the current moral-meta, but I do agree with the dev team in this case. I strongly disagreed with KotBS changes, and I still don't understand the point of making them, but I have adapted to be constantly respeccing to get this or that skill cause there is no longer a widely flexible approach. Would love to be able to be a tank again instead of a morale soaker that doesn't need a shield for what is worth.