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Throwing Forts

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1738

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#21 » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:51 pm

flintboth wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:56 pm
Why Order lose the RvR campaign and win 10 Aldorf instance and Destro only 6 ?
i dont know, a total mystery?

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adapter
Posts: 115

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#22 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:34 am

adamthelc wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:11 pm
adapter wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 9:12 pm
adamthelc wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:15 pm
Is it really that terrible? The optics of it arent great, but is really harmful? City sieges are the most fun part of the game right now why wouldnt people want to do them more? If you are on the defending side and you need invader gear it kind of sucks I guess. Or if you are really into the role playing aspect of the game you probably dont like it.

It's not like it's free gear for the side that threw the fort, just make sure you make them lose their instance. You cant stop them from getting 3 royal Crest and crests from bags and make sure that's all they get.

And currently it's not really 1 out of 24 to get a gold bag. The way contribution works the same people are getting most of the gold bags, but that has already been acknowledged and should be addressed so it doesnt seem like a huge issue.
City Sieges are not that fun. I've played 2 so far and it's so dissapointed and boring. Since Order loves to form bomb warband you get to play against a Bright Wizzard warband..which let me tell you it's a farm fest. Since AoE Cap favours BWs it's just sad....

Only fun i got is when i won a Gold Bag with 5 Royal Crest in it, i say fun because im possible winning something good and guess what! boom 5 crests hahahaha anyways im slowly farmin.

Having to stay in 1 hour scenario against a Bomb Warband is the WORST gameplay i've ever experienced in any MMO. You are forced to be stuck in there just dying over and over again to AoE Spammers haha so much FUN!!!

I will not queue anymore as a Warband to avoid Bomb "organized" warbands. Will try next time join as a 6premade or Solo.

And yes, Order are throwing away zones just to play City.

oRvR is broken!
It's all about perspective I guess. I think a warband sized instance is pretty cool. If you are a person or a group that relies on outnumbering the other side to win, I could understand why you dont like it.
I don't rely on outnumbering my enemy to win. I rely on forming Roleplay Greenskin Warbands to win on this game. Not always we run 24/24, most of the times is 2 or 3 groups.

We do not like to Zerg, we keep it green. I don't know why you would say that i rely on outnumbering the other side to win XD

in fact, order does that, they rely on playin full BWs warbands to win, because it's the most unbalanced and overpowered warband composition to win on this game, Order likes the easy way. And the easy way is to give up zones.

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Ototo
Posts: 967

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#23 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:17 am

adapter wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 1:34 am
I don't rely on outnumbering my enemy to win. I rely on forming Roleplay Greenskin Warbands to win on this game. Not always we run 24/24, most of the times is 2 or 3 groups.

We do not like to Zerg, we keep it green. I don't know why you would say that i rely on outnumbering the other side to win XD

in fact, order does that, they rely on playin full BWs warbands to win, because it's the most unbalanced and overpowered warband composition to win on this game, Order likes the easy way. And the easy way is to give up zones.
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Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:51 pm
flintboth wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:56 pm
Why Order lose the RvR campaign and win 10 Aldorf instance and Destro only 6 ?
i dont know, a total mystery?

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Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 458

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#24 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 3:56 am

Order run BW's because they do not have any viable alternatives... Destro is more flexible, as for order being stronger... BW can be countered its not immortal or invincible, destro have strong tools too, that give them advantages in different areas.

If playing a racial roleplay warband you will have some holes just like bitterstones with dwarfs had endured that a mixed race wb does not so you won't take advantage of all those tools and counters available to you...

If there is no reward to defender or underdog... everyone will play winner and no point being farmed , and if no one play underdog/defender then winner cannot get instance LOL... so people will stop as no progression... people are invested in their characters and playing for progression, some will zerg for it, some will swaps side for it. You see this by record numbers pushing campaign, then whoosh disappear afterwards when no chance of progression... you've given people a carrot and they will only come out to eat when that carrot's available and it has knock on effect.

Look at ORVR now post city siege with 12 hour lockout it kills the campaign... there is no incentives for people to fight or push zones as before... because loot and gear progression is all tied into it and very convoluted. I know Dev's are against killing rewarding... but since you added new tiers of gear... Maybe throw Warlord into Forts, and Invader into kills to try stimulate activity as a potential suggestion. Or make warlord its own currency and high amount needed but bound to kills(to encourage fighting) so people feel like they are getting something when they are pushing dead zones which otherwise give them nothing for doing it, and nothing after it as the campaign/city is on lockdown.

Because at the moment with 12 hour lockout... if a city happens during midday ... all of EU primetime won't have a chance of city ... so most are already geared and renowned and fought alot, they don't have much motivation to login/push/play/fight as there is nothing to fight as others are not motivated to fight and you see the difference in population which kills orvr because they cannot advance character progression.

Post City zone populations was lower than during NA times... if City happens during eu primetime, it should also effect NA in a negative way...
Reducing campaign lockout from 12 hours to 8 potentially might make it more fair and less impactful on each time zone ruining the ORVR for the next.

Also maybe there should be a mechanic for the realm and the ranking of city and it being plundered... depending on the outcome of all the instances combined

If order win more instances they get some gold in mail from the fallen corpses that failed to sack the city, If destro win more instances then they get more gold in the mail from wrecking enemy city ... or a special vendor with extra flavour goodies (dyes or unique fluff) with currency for this... on a ranking system of five stars, the higher the ranked the city more reward for defender, the lower ranked the city more reward for invader and maybe defending forts helps repair stars for defenders to repair city too add extra flavour.

Medal/crests or some buffs would be too broken / op... but maybe you can think of something better to add as a reward so there is some realm pride for defending / attacking and winning as a realm. You can win or lose your instance, but as a realm should maybe be rewarded too because there should be no number disparity which makes things fairer in city instances.
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Aethilmar
Posts: 176

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#25 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 6:02 am

I would just ask the devs to cut to the chase and stop linking end-game gear with the campaign progression system. The game as it stands now is going through the exact same issues live did. Vertical progression systems in PvP are not a good combination except for the relatively few folks who think their gear advantage equates to skill.

By way of spoilers, the next logical step once the "hard core" crowd grinds out their armor and has a significant advantage over the general population will be to remove forts (like live) and simple go right to city. Then it will be to make the end-game mode (city siege) into a general farm fest. Then, the next effort will be to hand out new baseline gear (baby sovereign) to pull up the newbies so they can still sort of compete.

OR do what has been suggested multiple times by multiple people and allow folks to get progression by playing all modes of the game with "end game" content having better rewards i.e. bags. Hell, you can even add extra micro rewards for the "desired" behaviors (defending BO for X amount of minutes, fighting in zone when > 100% AAO, spamming HTL for > 10 minutes, whatever else ...)

P.S. And you can stop the vertical progression thing which eliminates most of the balancing issues from the content (and introduces the problem of "progression" people complaining). I know that won't happen but still worth mentioning.

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Alfa1986
Posts: 330

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#26 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:06 am

Yaliskah wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:02 pm
Point is, we can't "punish" losers, cause (just quoting some feedbacks i had in the past):

1-They will move to the winning faction, because it is all about "being paid" for the time wasted. IMO i'm not sure having a single faction vs no one in the end would be a better design.

2-They stop playing if they have the feeling they will waste their time for 'nothing'.

The hardcore gamer i am would like to see winners rewarded with the blood of losers (good's loser properties), insrtead of "magic" stuff falling from the sky, but i fear, no one would like to experience something who would have some sense and would solve lot of "bad design".

This said, I'm all for testing a month without any roll or reward for losing side in ORVR/Fort/SC and cities. Are players ready for this?
i allow myself a little remark. only those who actually fought and were defeated by a stronger rival can be considered losers. here it is not about losing, but about refusing to fight, these are two completely different situations. but people are not to blame for the fact that they see no reason to defend the forts, or to fight, in reality there is a need to just peering honestly and understand the reasons why this happens.

flintboth
Posts: 439

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#27 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:35 am

Oh la la la la la la...

Today Eataine keep defence, the Destruction keep was not reaching is 2 stars and Orders farmers was already spamming all available chats (/2; /T4...) to recruit for the City instance.
Impossible to communicate real information for the keep defence, to organize anything in this crazy flood.
And Chaos Wast was again in contest... god I don't want to go in this mad house again...

I never seen so many mad cow, it give me the impressions this game is become an online testing laboratory for increasing mad behviours and analize them.

When Destruction players or farmers I don't know the appropriated term for the peoples who are loging in the game today... so when they get in Lord room of Shinning Way, it was so crazy, AOE, ZERG, RoR Corean game, flood, mass, crowd unleashed, like that :


Click here to watch on YouTube

After 30 minutes at "trying to play", I feel I need a long pause to recuperate my soul.
I looking for a good shaman (Drwho, Enigmo you there ?) or a nice nursing home (Slaanaesh chamber look a good place with all that pink everywhere).

And they throw the Battlefield, they throw the Keep, they throw the Fort... They throw the game and theirs souls and finaly the sientists have to conclud : "if we stimulate the appropriated brain part in an online game, we can see mad behaviours appear and peoples who like playing become stupid farmers like consumers the sales day".
And god who was playing the game, full of rage, leave and crash the game and the sientists.
test monkey 076 (test failure)

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Yaliskah
King of Nothing
Posts: 1812

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#28 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 10:54 am

Alfa1986 wrote:
Thu Feb 13, 2020 7:06 am
Yaliskah wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:02 pm
Point is, we can't "punish" losers, cause (just quoting some feedbacks i had in the past):

1-They will move to the winning faction, because it is all about "being paid" for the time wasted. IMO i'm not sure having a single faction vs no one in the end would be a better design.

2-They stop playing if they have the feeling they will waste their time for 'nothing'.

The hardcore gamer i am would like to see winners rewarded with the blood of losers (good's loser properties), insrtead of "magic" stuff falling from the sky, but i fear, no one would like to experience something who would have some sense and would solve lot of "bad design".

This said, I'm all for testing a month without any roll or reward for losing side in ORVR/Fort/SC and cities. Are players ready for this?
i allow myself a little remark. only those who actually fought and were defeated by a stronger rival can be considered losers. here it is not about losing, but about refusing to fight, these are two completely different situations. but people are not to blame for the fact that they see no reason to defend the forts, or to fight, in reality there is a need to just peering honestly and understand the reasons why this happens.
Nananna, by "losers" i nominate the faction who lose in general, whatever the reason; voluntarily or not (cause unless monitoring H24 logs and players behaviour i don't how server is supposed to adapt its behaviour).
When you say that people are not to blame for the fact they see no reason to defend the forts, or to fight, well, i must disagree (at some level), unless you consider that the purpose of the game is nothing but gearing your own character, for no reason. (Could be interesting to give max lvl+top gear to a brand new player and see how many time he plays before quitting the game. I say less than a week).

Again, the actual system let you win even if you lose, on a personnal base, and the system allows player to follow the path of least resistance for an average result. Because (and there is 0 repproach in this sentence), we are aware there is 0 realm proud (or we wouldn't talk about XRealm), there is 0 will to be punished because your faction don't "play the game" because "you" don't wanna be punished because of others in your own realm. Point is no one wants to lose, and when it happens, the national sport is to find a culprit : Balance, XRealm, Design, PU, Devs.

Actually, there are no consequencies to lose, and this is precisely the detail who breaks the system itself, and even if we were able to modify this, i'm ready to bet, that in time, we would see only 1 faction ingame because winning is more important than playing in the end.

Now to conclude, i'm not saying the actual RvR system is perfect, according it is mostly based on original one, and I would say "fortunately" for the video game industry. If we were able to make things better than professionnals in general (i fear you always forget we aren't), with a smaller team, with 0 tools, and a limited time, maybe should we start to forget this project and focus on something more "commercial" :p.

Now, and again, nothing is in the stone, and with time i'm convinced we will find solutions to enhance all this stuff.

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M0rw47h
Posts: 54

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#29 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:05 am

I'd say:
Move BIS gear rewards to oRvR, make RoR great again.
Keep cities and forts for renown and random loot bags as additional features.

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Collateral
Posts: 1494

Re: Throwing Forts

Post#30 » Thu Feb 13, 2020 11:15 am

Yaliskah wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:02 pm
Point is, we can't "punish" losers, cause (just quoting some feedbacks i had in the past):

1-They will move to the winning faction, because it is all about "being paid" for the time wasted. IMO i'm not sure having a single faction vs no one in the end would be a better design.

2-They stop playing if they have the feeling they will waste their time for 'nothing'.

The hardcore gamer i am would like to see winners rewarded with the blood of losers (good's loser properties), insrtead of "magic" stuff falling from the sky, but i fear, no one would like to experience something who would have some sense and would solve lot of "bad design".

This said, I'm all for testing a month without any roll or reward for losing side in ORVR/Fort/SC and cities. Are players ready for this?
You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. It's not about punishing anyone. It's about incentive. Ask yourself a couple of simple questions. First, how do I get end game gear at this point in time? It's by going to city siege of course. Then ask yourself another question. How does a city siege happen? It happens when a faction captures two forts. So following these answers a simple logic can be formulated - allowing enemies to capture our forts allows us to get to the city siege! It's really as simple as that. You devs should know better than anyone that players will ALWAYS choose the path of least resistance. And with this system you are giving them exactly that, and on a silver platter. And like it has been pointed out by Aethilmar, the hardcore grinders will grind out the gear in a couple of weeks, things will settle down a bit, and the average Joe will be left to fight full soveregin geared rr 80+ players, while rarely having a chance of getting the gear themselves. And the rest will happen like he said.

So what's the possible solution? Allow everyone to have an equal chance of getting the medals, not the bags and gear, but MEDALS. How do you do that? Drop them from player kills. After all it's what you want players to do I hope, kill each other? That's what WAR should be all about, not throwing zones and farming instances like some korean mmo.

Wam also made a good proposal. Make warlord a fort set, and allow invader medals to drop from kills. Also, what's the point of getting warlord anyway? You made a system where high renown people will simply skip an entire set. Unless for some reason you made warlord a requirement for sovereign, which is just bad design, like invader being required for the news sets. It's a bandaid design that artificially blocks people from progressing, for no reason at all other than to slow people down. Instead you can reward them for actively playing the game and participating in fights, like the good old times when conq was first released.

It's not about winners or loosers and punishing people. It's about rewarding the PLAYSTYLE you want people to do. If you want them to kill and fight, reward the killing and fighting!!
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