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Increase all movement speeds 10%

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Torintinhammer
Posts: 24

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#21 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:18 pm

imperialdeadite wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:57 pm
Torintinhammer wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:55 pm
Vayra wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:57 pm
Only if all ranged attacks and heals get an appropriate increase in range to offset the ability of melee classes to close the distance faster. It's hard enough playing ranged as it is.
Not sure why they would need more range. Should be maintaining positioning by moving when possible and everyone would move at the same speed.

This change would however prove an advantage to people who do move when they play. Kiters would become more effective. Stationary people would find it harder I guess. But they are already making it hard on themselves, right?

Whether the change is needed or not it would be pretty easy to implement.
"Maintaining position" is all well and good. Until your healers need to cast a 2-5 second heal spell while standing still.
So, yes please, let us make MDPS all better at killing healers. Sounds...fun...
Positioning, not maintaining position.

Based on the comment you are discussing group play. What position are your healers putting themselves in and how is the group not protecting them such that mdps get better at killing healers and the healer can't cast a heal? If your healers are getting killed it isn't because someone is moving faster. For example, a WE kamikaze to take out your healer at +10% speed doesn't change how fast their rotation kills the healer. And once stealth drops all the speed increase does is maybe help them disengage. Any other mdps still has to approach and can only be successful if the group fails to notice them (or if they are really bad and don't know how to slow mdps.

Can a specific example be provided? These generalizations of how this won't work are not convincing.

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Torintinhammer
Posts: 24

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#22 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:23 pm

imperialdeadite wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:16 pm
This suggestion has a lot of subtle game impacts.

Players moving faster:
1. Capture more objectives faster. Making the size of each map effectively smaller.
2. Makes MDPS classes better than any other role in the game.
3. Makes ranged classes, RDPS and heals, more vulnerable.
4. Penalizes any character trying to make use of non-instant actions.

The idea of standard movement being faster may have come from a well-intentioned place. But it would have a significant and detrimental impact on the game as a whole.
Point by point:
1. Objectives are captured by standing on them correct? Therefore while a group is capturing another group can close and engage faster to stop the cap. So opposite effect? Transporting resources both parties are moving the same unless one has a better mount. Does that mean better mounts are gamebreaking?
2. Specifically how? Have provided examples and other have provided examples (unknowingly) why this is not neccessarily true.
3. See 2.
4. No, it penalizes characters for playing static and unaware. If what you say is true then kiting shouldn't work now.

Torintinhammer
Posts: 24

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#23 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm

Grock wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 1:14 pm
To really sum it up you fail to gauge how much this kind of change will affect.

It won't affect just ranged attacks, but AoE and melee too.
It will affect travel time on the battlefield and considerably reduce the time it takes to go from BO to BO in either RvR or Scenarios. This will be particularly noticeable in Forts and Cities.

Increasing distance on ranged attacks and AoE abilities will change dead zones where ranged or AoE abilities can't hit you.
Not changing that will make it easier to get out of danger zone.
Lowering cast times to compensate will change DPS and cause other effects.

One of the game's strong point has always been low mobility and importance of proper positioning, while in most other MMOs movement speeds and movement abiliites make a lot of that a lot less punishing.

It will cause a butterfly effect. Don't touch it.
To sum it up what you are saying is it will penalize bad play and reward good play.

I'm fine with that.

See other responses about travel time and capture.

I do not suggest reducing cast times or increasing range. Only a speed increase is being proposed.

Low mobility a strong point? Think people are ignoring there is a PvE aspect to this game.

Can specific examples be given to support each of the points given? I'm trying to, fair is fair.

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imperialdeadite
Posts: 40

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#24 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:33 pm

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:23 pm
imperialdeadite wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:16 pm
This suggestion has a lot of subtle game impacts.

Players moving faster:
1. Capture more objectives faster. Making the size of each map effectively smaller.
2. Makes MDPS classes better than any other role in the game.
3. Makes ranged classes, RDPS and heals, more vulnerable.
4. Penalizes any character trying to make use of non-instant actions.

The idea of standard movement being faster may have come from a well-intentioned place. But it would have a significant and detrimental impact on the game as a whole.
Point by point:
1. Objectives are captured by standing on them correct? Therefore while a group is capturing another group can close and engage faster to stop the cap. So opposite effect? Transporting resources both parties are moving the same unless one has a better mount. Does that mean better mounts are gamebreaking?
2. Specifically how? Have provided examples and other have provided examples (unknowingly) why this is not neccessarily true.
3. See 2.
4. No, it penalizes characters for playing static and unaware. If what you say is true then kiting shouldn't work now.
Your opinion that the movement increase is a "dynamic" improvement. But your only argument as to why it would not be a negative impact is. And I am summarizing here "play better and you won't be hurt".
That is a poor stance to have from a game development standpoint. "Play better or quit" is just a shitty way of trying to maintain a game with changing mechanics.

Playing better is a learning curve and people should strive to improve their ability to play the game. But you are proposing a change and the only response to people opposing your suggestion is "play better". You would need to make a more compelling argument than that.
Last edited by imperialdeadite on Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vayra
Posts: 568

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#25 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:37 pm

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm


I do not suggest reducing cast times or increasing range. Only a speed increase is being proposed.

Low mobility a strong point? Think people are ignoring there is a PvE aspect to this game.

Can specific examples be given to support each of the points given? I'm trying to, fair is fair.
Like we have pointed out before, you cannot always cast at instant speed, therefore increasing mobility will need to address that in some form as well. Or you will make melee stronger against ranged/healers since they have less time to use non-instant abilities. With various pounces, charges and mara pull melee are already at an advantage against most ranged classes. Improving run speed without compensating elsewhere for casters will tip that balance further in favor of melee. We've stated this multiple times in this thread yet you seem unable to comprehend it.
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Grock
Posts: 580

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#26 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:52 pm

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm
I do not suggest reducing cast times or increasing range. Only a speed increase is being proposed.
You aren't listening.
Increase of base movement speed without addressing related mechanics (cast times, ranges) will benefit all the classes based around instant cast abilities, and harm the classes that are dependant on cast-time abilities, you don't need any live examples to realize that.

Melee classes already heavily dominate the field in every organized play environment. Such change will further solidify their advanage.

And thats just one part of it.

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm
Low mobility a strong point? Think people are ignoring there is a PvE aspect to this game.
Yes, thats exactly what we are doing, because this aspect barely even exists and isn't crucial to the game's health and life. And out of all the issues that currently exist in the game the "travel time in PvE" is probably of the absolute least concern.

The core of the game that allowed it to survive past offical closure has always been PvP, its a PvP game and people play it for PvP.

p.s. and over the last few years RoR developers received a lot of hate for rebuilding dungeons and "forcing" people into PvE via good rewards, keep that in mind please
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imperialdeadite
Posts: 40

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#27 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:56 pm

Grock wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:52 pm
Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm
I do not suggest reducing cast times or increasing range. Only a speed increase is being proposed.
You aren't listening.
Increase of base movement speed without addressing related mechanics (cast times, ranges) will benefit all the classes based around instant cast abilities, and harm the classes that are dependant on cast-time abilities, you don't need any live examples to realize that.

Melee classes already heavily dominate the field in every organized play environment. Such change will further solidify their advanage.

And thats just one part of it.

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm
Low mobility a strong point? Think people are ignoring there is a PvE aspect to this game.
Yes, thats exactly what we are doing, because this aspect barely even exists and isn't crucial to the game's health and life. And out of all the issues that currently exist in the game the "travel time in PvE" is probably of the absolute least concern.

The core of the game that allowed it to survive past offical closure has always been PvP, its a PvP game and people play it for PvP.
Seconding this post. It hits the nail on the head.
Like all those WL/WH/Slayer already do with my head when I am in a safe position with my shaman.
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SaintRon
Posts: 44

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#28 » Sat Apr 04, 2020 1:06 am

Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:46 pm

To sum it up, if you are playing static and unaware in PvP you will die anyway. This change would just allow the inevitable to happen faster. If you play aware and dynamic this will have no change in PvP. PvE this change would be great.
No... that's not how it works man.

Wow....are you new to these games?

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Torintinhammer
Posts: 24

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#29 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:54 am

Vayra wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:37 pm
Torintinhammer wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:30 pm


I do not suggest reducing cast times or increasing range. Only a speed increase is being proposed.

Low mobility a strong point? Think people are ignoring there is a PvE aspect to this game.

Can specific examples be given to support each of the points given? I'm trying to, fair is fair.
Like we have pointed out before, you cannot always cast at instant speed, therefore increasing mobility will need to address that in some form as well. Or you will make melee stronger against ranged/healers since they have less time to use non-instant abilities. With various pounces, charges and mara pull melee are already at an advantage against most ranged classes. Improving run speed without compensating elsewhere for casters will tip that balance further in favor of melee. We've stated this multiple times in this thread yet you seem unable to comprehend it.
No, definitely understand what is being said but can keep coming up with counterpoints.

Melee is effective against range if range stands still. The point being made is cast time means standing still which isn't always true. Some ranged can build while moving. In addition what are snares and knockbacks? Insta cast!

And I have to assume everyone is talking 1v1. A good range person who is aware should not die to melee unless there is an extreme skill/gear differential. Period. There are too many tools which are given in T1 to prevent this. There are also builds to make "tanky" ranged. Used to sit on BO's in T4 by myself as an engineer to invite WE's to attack. Because with armor and healing and turrets etc I was built for it and could live through the silence and knockdown and then wreck them.

And if you are speaking 1v1 then that is a very small portion of the game. In group settings the speed boost is moot as explained above. In PvE the speed boost is an advantage. These two instances are a large part of the game.

So I get what you are saying, but having played the original game from launch to end and not seeing a game that is too much different...what is being said does not hold water and smacks more of fear than thought.

As for the comment that the remedy for the speed change is to "git gud", you haven't read all the posts. If you are bad you are dying now and will continue to die. This change will have zero impact but to give people another excuse as to why they are dying.

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Grock
Posts: 580

Re: Increase all movement speeds 10%

Post#30 » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:20 am

Why would you even for a single moment assume that anyone here is talking about 1v1 after multiple people mentioned otherwise

It looks to me that you haven't played in any organized environment at all because a lot of what you're saying here is theoretical nonsense thats heavily separated from reality of what happens in the lakes
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