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PUG and Premade City instances

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Martok
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#11 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:46 pm

Orontes wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 5:54 pm
Forum and in game chat about classes are now heavily informed by a 'meta'. This meta means players looking to play class X that lay outside that model, are actively dissuaded from playing said classes and told they will not be accepted by warbands.

Unfortunately this is an accurate statement.

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Glorian
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#12 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:19 pm

I don't get the OP point.

At the moment it is to my information that if you join with an before made Warband you will be queud to other Warbands that joined the City instance.
So if you slap 24 randoms together and queue you will hit another premade of the other side. Most likely this will be one of these hardcore alliances.

If you queue with a 6men or alone you will most likely hit enemies that are made up of some 6mens and lonely queud pugs.

If you go with your 5 friends to a city there is allways the possebility to hit a Capulet 6men from the other side that alone can kill a wb with an undying Dok and WE. And then it is gg.

Concerning meta:
There are classes that shine in a WB and classes that don't.
Legoas SW can't do enough damage to take out targets.
Sniper Engis are fun, but can't compete with destro groups that guard, and even move with the guarded targets. It is the same with Magi. 1 is good, too much and you don't have enough instant killing power. If you have an unwanted class then you can't go into a premade warband. What is the fuzz about that? If you are a volleyball player you are not selected into the soccer team.

And the City meta has shifted to high ST dps in 6mens that can take out single targets instead of classical 8 BW Warbands. In the first week Order laughed when they saw 4 WEs on the other side. After picked one by one from independetly target seeking 6mens that confidence was gone and some Order Wbs shifted to Slayers and WL to take out themselve key targets. And have themselves something to to pounce in force to the healers or try to melt the frontline with Rampage+Retribution.

But no 8/8/8 Warband from any side that was just slapped together 2 minutes ago will win vs a bad setup Guild/Alliance Warband that moves every second day together and has already kicked out non fitting players.
Last edited by Glorian on Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mistdancer
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#13 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:22 pm

I agree with the OP 100%. Well written. Let’s dissolve a few misconceptions. The notion that premade guild warbands that evidently/supposedly everyone should join lest they be called noobs that have mentally remained in T1, are the sparkling epitome of organized and competitive play, is a myth. Contrary to popular belief and propaganda, all throughout the game, 99% of premades, from 6 man runtotheriver gankers, to 24 man letsstackagazillionaoeclasses guild warbands that go to cities, have one common thing in mind. To faceroll their way into ez gear and rr against pugs that do not pose a real threat. Not to fight equally geared/skilled/setup/manned and communicated opponents. In fact, said premades actively AVOID such competitive play. All those advocates of this myth that parrot that the pinnacle of antagonistic, “for the sport” gameplay is organized premades, willingly ignore the above facts. Why are they facts? Because if all those campaigners of premades and their apostles, actually followed and practiced this gamestyle, they would also actively champion the premade vs premade only scenario/rvr/cty/fort system etc.

They don’t. Why? Again. Free gear derived from farming easy targets. Hell, sometimes even JUST farming easy targets after they have amassed all the gear, just for the salt production of it all. Let’s just call it what it is.

Any argument against the above, is just another misconception hiding behind the typical self-defeating modal fallacy that sounds like : “well duhhh, join a premade yourself if you don’t like it.”

If we had a gaming community where premades declared far and wide that they only want to face other premades because that constitutes their self professed “apex of gaming”, then that would hold weight. It doesn’t.

If you want to continue promoting this system of ez mode farming, do so. Fine. Don’t base it on myths and false pretenses though. It falls through.

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Wam
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#14 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:38 pm

so predictable this would happen... this calls for nerf and give out free loot even more and more so sad

how would any of you survived a few years ago when there was just a few bags per a zone per a realm? (those who put in the most time / effort would get the most reward) dev's already bend over backwards and give out free candy but its never enough reward for greedy people with minimum effort who always want more for less...

WHO DEFINES WHO IS PUG AND WHO IS PREMADE... and then you have the loophole problem too, and you will be actively punishing those who seek to improve themselves and those who want to freeload leach get rewarded... with logic tell me how is that fair that you get rewarded more for less effort if everybody is equal and we are as players all equal, everybody bleeds and can die... just some put in more work than others... now those who put in more work get punished ? why should they be treated differently to those who can care less and just want easy rewards who ironically claim premade only want easy rewards? premade will fight and kill whatever is placed infront of it... setups are rng with time of day / activity.

I take pugs more often than not in my collabs, and sometimes you get a tank with no talismans that doesnt follow his dps and do his job 100%... does that make my group a pug because we have one?

Some co op pugs fight better than premades... because they dont get give up and try different things

Some co op pugs have killed me more than some premades... so how would fighting premades get a better fight when the co op's did better?

Its rng who you will face... sometimes they might have better setup than you at that time of day not everyone plays 24/7 its just how it is... like recently in instance 20 out of 26 you had Lob / Pugs vs TC and others ? that is two of the main organised threats on either side... do you define them as premade? semi premade? or pugs? and what if there is not enough premades to go around?

Pugs still get rewarded for losing, show me other game which overly rewards best end of game gear for LOSING, for dying? all you have to do is show up... that is pretty generous, yes that is a long slog but war is a long slog...

There is nothing stopping pug's from getting more organised, like some already have and thus they are more of a threat and to be taken serious... but if you going to bring random trash setups expect random trash results. There's a reason why some classes get overlooked because either they are underpowered, not suited to stratergy used... or there is just alot of bad players on those classes who are dead weight and thus taking them and carrying them is not ideal and akin to self griefing... Archmages in particular... Engis, Shadow Warriors... there are a few exceptional players still on these classes but the vast majority cant compete with a above average warrior priest/bright wizard/slayer/white lion... So if you play niche classes and tired of them being overlooked make a niche class collective akin to what white lion warband already did and make it work...

Everything that enters a city pug or not should use comms and be organised because 9 times out of the 10 the other side is definately going to be doing this ... you know why? to increase their chances of winning... its teamplay basics

Alot of it is rng, and some wouldnt realise how much effort goes into organising premades

Queing up instantly is the main way to improve chances of getting other premades who do the same... some might game the system maybe but see point above with instance 20/26 with organised force from both sides.. sometimes someone crash / afk and delays group from queing also... if people wait too long they might not get any instance so risk reward applies...


and if dev give bonus reward to premade... then pug will cry for this too... for example if they give bonus rewards to the first 5 city instances to encourage queing up straight away over trying to manipulate system for the so called "ez wins" ... because some of the more organised premades might have members who are late / afk and thus they could be further down the line and meet other organised people from the other realm with similar issues = RNG you get who you get, it doesn't really matter there is always next time.
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Detangler
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#15 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:32 pm

The only thing I dont like is how the uber builds actively try to avoid each other so they can get the easy gear. You'd think they would jump at the chance to get an even fight and brag when they beat their hatred rivals, but naw it's more fun to wait to queue and then stomp casuals cause you get 3 more crests.
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Martok
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#16 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:38 pm

A short response to some of the issues raised here utilizing video from a recent city defense:


Click here to watch on YouTube
Last edited by Martok on Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sarnai
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#17 » Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:51 pm

Wam wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:38 pm
... just some put in more work than others... now those who put in more work get punished ?
So making a premade and then being forced to face a premade is a punishment? Yikes...
WH looking for gunbad left

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wargrimnir
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#18 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:13 am

Martok wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:38 pm
A short response to some of the issues raised here utilizing video from a recent city defense:


Click here to watch on YouTube
Retention will be what it will be. I don't think we expect a seriously high number of players to be on the server perpetually in the long run. We had a big Youtube spike, lots of exposure, and while we expect this will definitely scratch an itch for some, for others it will fade over several weeks. MMO's have a very real problem of being a themepark ride, where people get what they want to get, see what they want to see, and they get off the ride when they're done. New players that understand PvP will have a much better reason to stay over players that are here to see the sights, take a few pictures, and enjoy some nostalgia. And yes, part of that nostalgia is getting your teeth kicked in when you pug where you probably shouldn't. We're still building out PvE concepts that exist almost solely as a design to get people hooked and dragged into the real action eventually. Some will succumb to RvR, others will find another game to play. That's the burden of a game like this, and we've come to terms with it a long time ago.

Veteran players (and new players that stay long term), would be advised to see this as more of a sport. You practice. You skirmish. You get better equipment. You learn new tactics. You find other players looking to do more. You run drills. You build out your team. Then you play The Big Game. Win? Lose? Repeat. Then go on to play another and another and another. You improve over time, and unlike real sports, this one doesn't take a toll on your body as you age.

Look at the average age of some of the bigger groups that play on this server, think about how old YOU are. We're not playing this game because a new wave of nostalgic fans and totally new players looking for a free MMO to wander through is suddenly going to revitalize it, and do what exactly? There's still a limited amount of time in the day for volunteer devs to keep it going and expand on the core concepts that we all know deeply. WAR is WAR. As long as we have interesting battlefields to beat the crap out of each other on, we're gonna do it. Pug concepts are training wheels, not a final design philosophy.

The treadmill of the game isn't actually the shiny gear (but it can be for some), it's not even sacking the enemy city. What you're really looking for, if you're here long term, is a challenge. Reaching higher levels of gameplay means that you have to accept that there are tiers of players that can wipe the floor with you, and will not hold back when the chance encounter comes up. Guilds have been honing their warbands for years to get into top shape so they can claim that dominance. When you get to the top of that pile of bodies and you're looking down at all challengers, you're not safe either. It's just one WL warband meme spec away from kicking back down the hill to regroup and respec your plans. It's just one balance change away from pulling a cog out of your well oiled machine and shifting the meta.

I very much understand, it's not pleasant to be stomped so hard that your excitement is derived from the other team finally collecting their prize so you can leave the instance with a pity token. That's a wake-up call though. At least it should be. If players can't accept there's this level of challenge in the game, then what are they here for? If you want a casual experience, fine. You're part of the meat, and complaining about being run through the meatgrinder is natural. Aspire to be more than meat. Be the meatgrinder instead.
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Wam
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Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#19 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 2:50 am

Sarnai wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:51 pm
Wam wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 10:38 pm
... just some put in more work than others... now those who put in more work get punished ?
So making a premade and then being forced to face a premade is a punishment? Yikes...
Yes if premade vs premade is forced it creates alot of issues when you seperate population and loopholes (what is a premade?) i've run a couple guild cities, ive run many more collab premade, and then run a quite a few with pugs... so which group fall into catergory of premade... how do you decide? and yes ive instant qued alot and fought the best on either side multiple times...

and yes the most fun is when you get decent opposition and its more equal... but sometimes its fine margins and setup vs setup ... rock, paper, scissors...

But you are telling me that people who put in more effort and get organised... fight vs other premade ... higher chance of losing, little reward for their time IN COMPARISON to the

MEMEMEMEME casual player makes demands... gets catered too, gets easy rewards for putting in little effort, no desire or incentive to improve despite it being the end of game... probably never done gunbad, city dungeon or bastion... someone who bring 8/8/8 setup should not be forced to be punished over someone who bring 3-14-7 and bad mix. They should be in same boat as everybody else no special treatment... so their chance to face 8/8/8 or 12-10-2 is RNG and just the same. (Some co op pugs have been bigger threat than some premades... but some have weak leadership and bad setup and destined to lose no matter what they fight)

I believe in Equality and RNG... why should someone who cant be bothered get special treatment when we are all the same... you realise how boring it will be to fight the same 5 premades over and over and there's still chance to get them anyways... and for me more chance of enemy premades as ive played both sides to a decent level. Also the amount of premade instances would be alot less than casual pug, so that would cause issues too and punish people for getting organised if overflow of premades on one side... talk about logistical issues, which casual players do not take into account.

Yes stomp instances are boring, but just like scenarios you cant always get it balanced...

So premades have to extra earn their rewards and pugs can just free coast / bandwagon? havent they been rewarded enough from zerging in orvr?

You realise before sovereign was released you really never saw LF ORGANISED WB in game at all... for YEARS like you do now... because pugs had no desire or incentive to improve... now you got a incentive to improve and only yourself to blame if you do not seek to put in a little bit more effort to communicate with your realm mates / friends / guilds / alliances...

It was just Zerg on me... I form overflow and follow zerg herder... Zerging doesnt work in cities, people need to adapt to that and that is a good thing...
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Mystry
Posts: 384

Re: PUG and Premade City instances

Post#20 » Fri Apr 03, 2020 3:38 am

Vayra wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 8:40 pm
Cities are end-game content. And should reward coordination and preparation. I've both pugged cities, joined 12 mans, and gone in with a premade from some of the better destro guilds. You can always find some group willing to take you, though the very best might be more restrictive on classes and/or gear.
By your own signature you play a sorc, a dok, and a BG.

I challenge you to find a single non-**** city warband that will invite you when you're playing a non-meta class.

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