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Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:26 pm
by uanaka
Heya! Just wanted to make a recommendation and maybe you'll find it works out well for you. I know it'll be different than how you would normally play it, but hopefully it's not too drastic and offputting.
I normally run a grace/salv hybrid when it comes to rvr and cities, and i find that wearing str based gear (~500str) is enough for my sigmar radiance group heal to still do 400-450 (at a minimum) while using my salvation hots. Although my playstyle still revolves around using sigmar radiance as the primary filler and the hots secondary, I am still able to pump out decent healing output since I run discipline/exalted defenses which definitely helps boost the salv numbers. I also don't run divine fury so there are no reductions in my salv hots either.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:41 pm
by Rydiak
Yea DroolingLion, try the hybrid build where you wear Strength gear but spec deep into Salvation. Check my guide for a build suggestion. You can easily have your Sigmar's Radiance heal for equal to or greater than what it healed before the recent changes (it was tuned with Mercenary gear as a baseline) even without Divine Fury, and your Salvation heals will be boosted by Discipline and Exalted Defenses. Hybrid spec is just as viable as it was before the patch, you'll just have to make some changes to your gear. Expecting Grace abilities to scale with Willpower is just as unrealistic as expecting Salvation abilities to scale with Strength, or Wrath abilities to scale with Willpower. If anything, the patch opened up new avenues of gear-set building because we now finally have scaling built into our most used ability. Keep on experimenting and feel free to ask us if you need any help!
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:27 pm
by Wiede
I don't know the exact formula but with an 1s aoe heal and an instant hot your willpower should have a crap scaling anyways? Just dodge it
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
by Zxul
To put it in simple terms- as a healer you will be focused, then focused again, then focused some more.
Before with a shield you could spec defensively, now since some wps/doks can't bear thought of non glass cannon build if you go Grace/Sacrifice routine you need to spec glass cannon to get decent heals. Guess how much heals help you survive during KD for example, compared to passive defenses? Or when focused by several people?
As for Salvation/Dark Rites main with shield, there is the question of how effective speccing about block really is when you no longer get efficient heals out of dmg, compared to just using chalice and freeing renown/equip slots to spec other defenses.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:41 pm
by xarax
it is just a dead spec in rvr. Might be good in PVE but as long as someone can kite you or you get focused while being a glass cannon you will not heal something. And every try to make that spec viable makes it even worse. Just get rid of this shield.
It was a good test to try something new. Now it wont work, just revoke and try something else.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:50 pm
by siflisk
I share the same sentiment.
The willpower gear is willpower/toughness/wounds. It is better suited for frontline tank/healing. Zonwin is my toughness stacking grace WP and I have to use willpower gear to get the most toughness. I think sentinel gear actually has good str/toughness/wounds stats but that doesnt help until you get it.
The biggest problem Grace WP has is itemization. You need tank stats and lower level WP itemization does not support it.
Most very rare and below items have horrible stat allocation. Just checked all of the PQ rewards and so many items have terrible stat combinations like str/will on the same item.
As a side note, I miss 2h grace having Sigmar's Radiance.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pm
by uanaka
Zxul wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
To put it in simple terms- as a healer you will be focused, then focused again, then focused some more.
Before with a shield you could spec defensively, now since some wps/doks can't bear thought of non glass cannon build if you go Grace/Sacrifice routine you need to spec glass cannon to get decent heals. Guess how much heals help you survive during KD for example, compared to passive defenses? Or when focused by several people?
As for Salvation/Dark Rites main with shield, there is the question of how effective speccing about block really is when you no longer get efficient heals out of dmg, compared to just using chalice and freeing renown/equip slots to spec other defenses.
I feel like people aren't actually understanding the changes to grace/sacrifice. The change was to allow sigmar radiance's healing to scale BETTER with your offensive stats now, as should be expected from a mastery tree based on lifetap healing. The changes were proposed after testing different scaling values, such that a new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary will end up healing MORE than before, even with the base heal removed from Grace of Sigmar. The changes ALLOW you to try and find how much offensive stat you are comfortable with running because the healing from radiance scales much better than before. Even if you stayed with a defensive/toughness build, you WILL heal more than before as long as you have >600 str/melee power, which should not be hard given you can do that with entry level 40 gear, and you have a 120 str buff from Sigmar's Fist.
If you play alone a lot and you can't always rely on having guards and other healers, you are more than welcome to stay in a more defensive build. I have tested full toughness builds with sentinel (around 700toughness), or high armor (4.5+ armor) builds, and I am still healing more than before simply because we are not relying on a static base heal that hasn't scaled at all to account for newer gear sets that have come o ut.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:02 pm
by istvar
uanaka wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pm
Zxul wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
To put it in simple terms- as a healer you will be focused, then focused again, then focused some more.
Before with a shield you could spec defensively, now since some wps/doks can't bear thought of non glass cannon build if you go Grace/Sacrifice routine you need to spec glass cannon to get decent heals. Guess how much heals help you survive during KD for example, compared to passive defenses? Or when focused by several people?
As for Salvation/Dark Rites main with shield, there is the question of how effective speccing about block really is when you no longer get efficient heals out of dmg, compared to just using chalice and freeing renown/equip slots to spec other defenses.
I feel like people aren't actually understanding the changes to grace/sacrifice. The change was to allow sigmar radiance's healing to scale BETTER with your offensive stats now, as should be expected from a mastery tree based on lifetap healing. The changes were proposed after testing different scaling values, such that a new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary will end up healing MORE than before, even with the base heal removed from Grace of Sigmar. The changes ALLOW you to try and find how much offensive stat you are comfortable with running because the healing from radiance scales much better than before. Even if you stayed with a defensive/toughness build, you WILL heal more than before as long as you have >600 str/melee power, which should not be hard given you can do that with entry level 40 gear, and you have a 120 str buff from Sigmar's Fist.
If you play alone a lot and you can't always rely on having guards and other healers, you are more than welcome to stay in a more defensive build. I have tested full toughness builds with sentinel (around 700toughness), or high armor (4.5+ armor) builds, and I am still healing more than before simply because we are not relying on a static base heal that hasn't scaled at all to account for newer gear sets that have come o ut.
Yeah but you only healed for 1.2 million in grace spec in the city the other day, so what do you know?
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:19 pm
by uanaka
istvar wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:02 pm
uanaka wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pm
Zxul wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
To put it in simple terms- as a healer you will be focused, then focused again, then focused some more.
Before with a shield you could spec defensively, now since some wps/doks can't bear thought of non glass cannon build if you go Grace/Sacrifice routine you need to spec glass cannon to get decent heals. Guess how much heals help you survive during KD for example, compared to passive defenses? Or when focused by several people?
As for Salvation/Dark Rites main with shield, there is the question of how effective speccing about block really is when you no longer get efficient heals out of dmg, compared to just using chalice and freeing renown/equip slots to spec other defenses.
I feel like people aren't actually understanding the changes to grace/sacrifice. The change was to allow sigmar radiance's healing to scale BETTER with your offensive stats now, as should be expected from a mastery tree based on lifetap healing. The changes were proposed after testing different scaling values, such that a new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary will end up healing MORE than before, even with the base heal removed from Grace of Sigmar. The changes ALLOW you to try and find how much offensive stat you are comfortable with running because the healing from radiance scales much better than before. Even if you stayed with a defensive/toughness build, you WILL heal more than before as long as you have >600 str/melee power, which should not be hard given you can do that with entry level 40 gear, and you have a 120 str buff from Sigmar's Fist.
If you play alone a lot and you can't always rely on having guards and other healers, you are more than welcome to stay in a more defensive build. I have tested full toughness builds with sentinel (around 700toughness), or high armor (4.5+ armor) builds, and I am still healing more than before simply because we are not relying on a static base heal that hasn't scaled at all to account for newer gear sets that have come o ut.
Yeah but you only healed for 1.2 million in grace spec in the city the other day, so what do you know?
You're right, a poop-sock has no right to help others be a poop-sock.
Re: WP/DOK Shield spec
Posted: Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:02 pm
by Zxul
uanaka wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pm
I feel like people aren't actually understanding the changes to grace/sacrifice. The change was to allow sigmar radiance's healing to scale BETTER with your offensive stats now, as should be expected from a mastery tree based on lifetap healing.
Actually let me rephrase it for you- the change was to make Grace's healing to scale WORSE with your defensive stats now- toughness/armor talis=t3 heals. As in, if before Grace+shield main was useless just in rvr, now shield wp/dok become also much easier to burst down in small scale.
uanaka wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pmThe changes were proposed after testing different scaling values, such that a new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary will end up healing MORE than before, even with the base heal removed from Grace of Sigmar. The changes ALLOW you to try and find how much offensive stat you are comfortable with running because the healing from radiance scales much better than before. Even if you stayed with a defensive/toughness build, you WILL heal more than before as long as you have >600 str/melee power, which should not be hard given you can do that with entry level 40 gear, and you have a 120 str buff from Sigmar's Fist.
Now funny thing is, a new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary will NOT end up healing MORE than before, since he won't be anywhere near 600 str. A new level 40 wearing a mix of beastlord and mercenary, with full str talis and offensive jewelry will- in theory, since in practice he will live exactly until a single competent dps with a decent setup does KD/burst, and then will go down to 0 healing while waiting for respawn/rez.
uanaka wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:07 pmIf you play alone a lot and you can't always rely on having guards and other healers, you are more than welcome to stay in a more defensive build. I have tested full toughness builds with sentinel (around 700toughness), or high armor (4.5+ armor) builds, and I am still healing more than before simply because we are not relying on a static base heal that hasn't scaled at all to account for newer gear sets that have come o ut.
How much will you heal exactly after 2 WE's in annih will burst you down?
istvar wrote: ↑Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:02 pm
Yeah but you only healed for 1.2 million in grace spec in the city the other day, so what do you know?
And I managed to stay in top healing positions in cities with 700 will and pretty much no heal crit, while not having wp's wounds buff to inflate my healing (and while using rezzes ets). Your point?