Debate about why Order is how it is.

[RORquest]

i think Bg shits on IB on tank ....one is the best the other the worse

mostly cause IB buffs don't stack and BG do since they are more % base and ib is raw stats
this is actually a huge nerf for order if u think about it

i hear on live buff stats stack but for some reason here they dont even tho IB clearly is meant for it

it negates most of our skills if theres a kotbs or maybe get a small increase of like 10 stats

[Postmortem]

Go to T1 sometime and see what the new folks are playing. All RDPS and piss-poor heals that really want to dps, but figure they will survive longer if they can heal themselves than they did on their level 5 BW. Why guard when your dps is terrible at positioning and you know your heals are limited to a hot or they are non-existent. Creates a snowball effect for the whole faction and is carried into T4.

Classes are fine, players are the problem.

[Aurandilaz]

Our guild/allianceh had a row of +30 victories playing Order warbands in cities until we finally lost one time vs some of the best destro 6mans-alliance (when we were missing about 8 of our core players and tried random setup like double WH and 5 WP and 1 SM, because people had gotten bored already).
That being said, majority of Order groups in cities I've seen so far playing (when playing last 7 weeks on Destro), bring horrible compositions to city, or completely fail to achieve a functional meleetrain that doesnt instadie due to weak healing or tank guard errors.

Order has higher dmg output (BW + Slayer vs their destro "mirrors"), Order has higher healing output (WP + RP + Kotb + AM + SM heal modifier stack potential) and what Order lacks in morale drain, they compensate with superior ST morale pump (1 AM focus pumping a KOTB to SF within 20 sec). Their CC game is arguable weaker, assuming you rate Choppa pull as positive fight decider (assuming its followed by dmg and not just a random free immunity) or Mara AOE 2 s KD which Order does lack (no one engi sacrifices their turret for the realm).

Somehow most groups fail to achieve the needed synergy between the trinity; either heals are weak or slow or melt too fast, or tanks unable to remain in guard range and use CC wisely or unable to perform proper challenge rotations, or dps unable to coordinate with assisting and stay out of AOE-bomb centres to remain alive long enough to melt enough enemy DPS.

Another aspec is Orders unwillingess to adapt to changing meta, in ORVR stacking BWs is more than good, in cities only bad enemies let you win vs a BW stack. You need that melee burst to get any focus healed target with 8 hots down.
Devs nerfing Shatter Limbs from 5 sec down to 3 sec was kinda ehh, but arguable MSH lost theirs as well. WH nerf was brutal to Order due to lack of alternative options when it comes to slowing down enemy morale game. RP healdebuff nerf was kinda mean, even if both zealot and DoK lost their aoe hdbuff as well.

[Schett]

Based on cites
I've been watching quite a lot of order streams to understand what's going on.
I'm not here to trash talk just saying my opinion. I play both order and destro (mostly destro last month) as mdps/healer
This is based on the pov from healer streams and a lot of city instanced played.

There's so few healers on order that seem to not understand how to effectively heal and position.
I never see them pre-hot their party before engage nor do they hot while fighting. They are mostly spamming grp heal like they have no other skill. Both grp hot and single target hot.

The positioning on a lot of healers is terrible as well (this goes for destro as well, order can't just punish it as well) it's so often you can see a healer stack with 3-6 healers standing together just waiting to be all cc'd and killed. Instead of just all spreading around making sure you can never hit more than 1, max 2 healers with aoe.

So even if the dps are guarded they all just melt because no proper healing.

[Illuminati]

I honestly think it's because of how some of the other classes on Order over perform and leave boring roles for tanks. The game is about roles not the ol' trinity.

Solo roamer playstyle? roll an AM, aSW, or WH. I never see solo roam tanks anymore.
AoE Damage? BW, Slayer, WL (fluff)
Melee Burst? WL, WH, aSW, Slayer
Utility? meh, boring

Tanks were made into punt/guard/snare bots which is very boring to play. The changes to RuneFang made KOTBS boring to roam with and some Order classes trivialize tank DPS with how bursty/defensive they are (aSW, WL). Chosen are in a bad spot with no Critical Strikes, lack of utility vs KoTBS. Honestly, not sure why people don't play more SM's as they now have Critical Strikes with Dragon's Talon/Raking Talon.

Want more tanks? make them fun to play. Start by bug reporting the broken abilities and hopefully we get the Sov Bonuses looked at.

The reason Destro has more Tanks is we don't have as many melee burst classes and tanks get spots in WBs, etc. (you should see the outside of IC on city pushes. 100+ DPS just sitting there...)

Order Melee Burst (4) : aSH (crit = burst), WL (lol), Slayer (ID+ anything), WH
Destro Melee Burst (2): WE, Choppa

Tanks rely on Taunt for damage (trivialized by AoE, dots/procs ripping it off before cooldown ends), lack of snare/root immunity, and lack of fun. Every tank should have a meaningful DPS spec that is 80-90% of the capability of a DPS, not 50%. Why can AM's run around with a viable DPS spec when Tanks' cannot?

TL;DR: Fix all the broken tank abilities (on all tanks). (I bugged reported a bunch). Make them fun to play by actually giving them a DPS option that doesn't suck

[RORquest]

also another thing IB can get alot of armor but on this server its cap at 75%

this is also huge against drestro melee train and probably why the meta melee train is so much better

[Xergon]

I wouldn't say that appearance is major factor, its all personal choice. I prefer my Knight (can make Robocop lookalike) and SM (specially 2hander) look over any BG/BO, only Chosen looks appealing to me.

Imho it all comes down to understanding how mechanics and synergies between classes/archetypes works. Understand what is your setup advantage and what is your enemy weakness.

Ofc you are not wrong with big difference of classes disparity between factions although as guild you recruit what you need and you build setup you aim for. You need to get freshmans and train them, thats work in progress all the time. And im not talking even about 24 peeps, u need backups cuz ppl are unreliable, some come some go, u never know, so the bigger backup u have, more stable your guild is. Your setup is as strong as weakest link in it.
As TUP we had big problems with filling full WB in the past so we put hard work to recruit more, and most problems comes mostly from TANK position (even on destro, but still its def easier than on Order), and believe me we had some ppl who were unable to cooperate or communicate or even understand what we asked from them, but we also found some jewels, fresh or coming back from long break, who actually wanna improve and are ready to accept feedback. Obviously u cant got full zerg mode and recruit everyone (like Singluarity on Destro) cuz then lose ability to connect with ppl and provide feedback for each single one, if they need guide.

Its funny that ppl call this 2008 old game simple and easy... Sure if you wanna PUG it all day, yes its easy, but if you wanna actually start winning and be competitive, then every single detail starts matters.

Issue on Order is ppl are either too nice to each other or too cocky and dont want to listen others, who have experience or fresh look on things. Some Orderlings prefer to roleplay more than actually put some work and discipline. Some Leaders are too nice too ppl, they accept ppl faults so obviously it will hit them back when performance is needed.

I think, can always blame things around, but dont think its the way to go, i would not rely on someone from outside fixing it.

[RORquest]

I wouldn't say that appearance is major factor, its all personal choice. I prefer my Knight (can make Robocop lookalike) and SM (specially 2hander) look over any BG/BO, only Chosen looks appealing to me.

Imho it all comes down to understanding how mechanics and synergies between classes/archetypes works. Understand what is your setup advantage and what is your enemy weakness.

Ofc you are not wrong with big difference of classes disparity between factions although as guild you recruit what you need and you build setup you aim for. You need to get freshmans and train them, thats work in progress all the time. And im not talking even about 24 peeps, u need backups cuz ppl are unreliable, some come some go, u never know, so the bigger backup u have, more stable your guild is. Your setup is as strong as weakest link in it.
As TUP we had big problems with filling full WB in the past so we put hard work to recruit more, and most problems comes mostly from TANK position (even on destro, but still its def easier than on Order), and believe me we had some ppl who were unable to cooperate or communicate or even understand what we asked from them, but we also found some jewels, fresh or coming back from long break, who actually wanna improve and are ready to accept feedback. Obviously u cant got full zerg mode and recruit everyone (like Singluarity on Destro) cuz then lose ability to connect with ppl and provide feedback for each single one, if they need guide.

Its funny that ppl call this 2008 old game simple and easy... Sure if you wanna PUG it all day, yes its easy, but if you wanna actually start winning and be competitive, then every single detail starts matters.

Issue on Order is ppl are either too nice to each other or too cocky and dont want to listen others, who have experience or fresh look on things. Some Orderlings prefer to roleplay more than actually put some work and discipline. Some Leaders are too nice too ppl, they accept their faults so obviously it will hit them back.

I think, can always blame things around, but dont think its the way to go, i would not rely on someone from outside fixing it.

even order premades/guilds are losing

[Xergon]

Tanks were made into punt/guard/snare bots which is very boring to play. The changes to RuneFang made KOTBS boring to roam with and some Order classes trivialize tank DPS with how bursty/defensive they are (aSW, WL). Chosen are in a bad spot with no Critical Strikes, lack of utility vs KoTBS. Honestly, not sure why people don't play more SM's as they now have Critical Strikes with Dragon's Talon/Raking Talon.

Want more tanks? make them fun to play. Start by bug reporting the broken abilities and hopefully we get the Sov Bonuses looked at.

Thats again, player mentality issue. Yes, you can play tank as guard bot and hope you will get carried by rest, but there is big difference between actively thinking Tank who seeks for best Punt, Best Root, Best target to Stagger/Debuff, most efficient snare, not to mention to communicate with Leader about Morales and stuff. One SM/IB can interrupt whole enemy Moral drop (unless someone already gave enemy immunity...), Tanks needs to coordinate between each other with Challenge rotations and M2 Rotations (if needed).

Proper 2hd DPS Tank spec can bring a lot value into City, aslong you dont die to guard damage or before your DPS, again giving your group actually know what to do and how to use you.

[Xergon]

Spoiler:

I wouldn't say that appearance is major factor, its all personal choice. I prefer my Knight (can make Robocop lookalike) and SM (specially 2hander) look over any BG/BO, only Chosen looks appealing to me.

Imho it all comes down to understanding how mechanics and synergies between classes/archetypes works. Understand what is your setup advantage and what is your enemy weakness.

Ofc you are not wrong with big difference of classes disparity between factions although as guild you recruit what you need and you build setup you aim for. You need to get freshmans and train them, thats work in progress all the time. And im not talking even about 24 peeps, u need backups cuz ppl are unreliable, some come some go, u never know, so the bigger backup u have, more stable your guild is. Your setup is as strong as weakest link in it.
As TUP we had big problems with filling full WB in the past so we put hard work to recruit more, and most problems comes mostly from TANK position (even on destro, but still its def easier than on Order), and believe me we had some ppl who were unable to cooperate or communicate or even understand what we asked from them, but we also found some jewels, fresh or coming back from long break, who actually wanna improve and are ready to accept feedback. Obviously u cant got full zerg mode and recruit everyone (like Singluarity on Destro) cuz then lose ability to connect with ppl and provide feedback for each single one, if they need guide.

Its funny that ppl call this 2008 old game simple and easy... Sure if you wanna PUG it all day, yes its easy, but if you wanna actually start winning and be competitive, then every single detail starts matters.

Issue on Order is ppl are either too nice to each other or too cocky and dont want to listen others, who have experience or fresh look on things. Some Orderlings prefer to roleplay more than actually put some work and discipline. Some Leaders are too nice too ppl, they accept their faults so obviously it will hit them back.

I think, can always blame things around, but dont think its the way to go, i would not rely on someone from outside fixing it.

even order premades/guilds are losing

I dont see LoB having big problems in City so far, even Frenches winning some of their Cities against semi premade groups on Destro.