Recent Topics

Ads

Debate about why Order is how it is.

Let's talk about... everything else

Moderators: Developer, Management, Web Developer

User avatar
Aurandilaz
Posts: 1826

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#81 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:32 pm

kmark101 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:20 pm
Why everyone in this thread keeps ignoring the glaring huge imbalance with the morale gameplay and how easy is to drop morales on destro compared to order (considering same skills with movement + get to the choppa pull spam). There are organized Order guilds are literally disbanding every week because they realize they hit the brick wall in morale play and see no possible way to overcome this... how long is this going to be denied as the primary factor why "more competitive players tend to reroll to destro"?
I can tell you that about 90% of our Destro wins have been achieved without us reaching M2, simply because enemy will have lost majority of their dps pressure and 20-50% of their healers within first 20-30sec of fight before you can reach morales. Healers have a very bad habit of standing in piles and DPS fail to achieve functional melee assist trains. Occasionally a fight will last long enough for some Maras to be able to steal last hits with their M2 drop, but meanwhile the MSH, Choppas, Chosens will be passing the need to use morales, with the Sorcs adding 1-2 M2s if something is still left alive, or 3-4 mara M2 on whatever survivors are left.

Order has higher dmg pressure (both BW and Slayer vs their counterparts, even if teiloh above tries to argue against raw numbers you can check yourself by playing Sorc/BW/SL/Chop/WP/DoK (I got all of them on decent gear levels)) and higher healing output when playing correctly.
Enemy would need stupid high number of Choppas to cause some massive pull meltdown, meaning having 3-5 Choppas means lacking M2s just in case fight drags on. Not to mention higher risk, Choppas eating way more dmg than Maras or MSH. Even then, you want to spare your pull for healers or overextending DPS, and do max 1-2 pulls and then go back to doing actual dmg. (GTDC being below Lotsa spam dmg or Wild Choppin dmg)

If your whole city plan to win relies on morales, it just means your dps players are not playing at their best and you need to alter the gameplay, plan is to win with pure AoE dmg pressure and coordinated burst on high priority targets (BWs, Slayers, AMs, RPs - their Destro mirrors), and then if situation allows or fight drags on, planning a morale drop.
It gets easier when you swap from BW/Sorc to SL/Chop, you have no good M2 to drop, so your approach becomes "how can I maximize my dmg scores and deathblow scores without having to think at all about my morales" (or use m1 for survival)

Ads
dansari
Suspended
Posts: 2524

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#82 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:34 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:32 pm
kmark101 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:20 pm
Why everyone in this thread keeps ignoring the glaring huge imbalance with the morale gameplay and how easy is to drop morales on destro compared to order (considering same skills with movement + get to the choppa pull spam). There are organized Order guilds are literally disbanding every week because they realize they hit the brick wall in morale play and see no possible way to overcome this... how long is this going to be denied as the primary factor why "more competitive players tend to reroll to destro"?
I can tell you that about 90% of our Destro wins have been achieved without us reaching M2, simply because enemy will have lost majority of their dps pressure and 20-50% of their healers within first 20-30sec of fight before you can reach morales. Healers have a very bad habit of standing in piles and DPS fail to achieve functional melee assist trains. Occasionally a fight will last long enough for some Maras to be able to steal last hits with their M2 drop, but meanwhile the MSH, Choppas, Chosens will be passing the need to use morales, with the Sorcs adding 1-2 M2s if something is still left alive, or 3-4 mara M2 on whatever survivors are left.

Order has higher dmg pressure (both BW and Slayer vs their counterparts, even if teiloh above tries to argue against raw numbers you can check yourself by playing Sorc/BW/SL/Chop/WP/DoK (I got all of them on decent gear levels)) and higher healing output when playing correctly.
Enemy would need stupid high number of Choppas to cause some massive pull meltdown, meaning having 3-5 Choppas means lacking M2s just in case fight drags on. Not to mention higher risk, Choppas eating way more dmg than Maras or MSH. Even then, you want to spare your pull for healers or overextending DPS, and do max 1-2 pulls and then go back to doing actual dmg. (GTDC being below Lotsa spam dmg or Wild Choppin dmg)

If your whole city plan to win relies on morales, it just means your dps players are not playing at their best and you need to alter the gameplay, plan is to win with pure AoE dmg pressure and coordinated burst on high priority targets (BWs, Slayers, AMs, RPs - their Destro mirrors), and then if situation allows or fight drags on, planning a morale drop.
It gets easier when you swap from BW/Sorc to SL/Chop, you have no good M2 to drop, so your approach becomes "how can I maximize my dmg scores and deathblow scores without having to think at all about my morales" (or use m1 for survival)
Thank you for proving the imbalances extend beyond the morale imbalance.
<Salt Factory>

User avatar
Vayra
Posts: 571

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#83 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:37 pm

dansari wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:29 pm
Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

It's the truth. Destro organize for cities, order apparently don't. The results speak for themselves.
Vayra - Sorc
Forkrul - DoK
Kalyth - BG

User avatar
Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 686

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#84 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:39 pm

kmark101 wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:26 pm
Wam wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:12 pm

Montague had way better assist and positioning that other order guilds should aspire too... if they can do it why can't others 8-)


So you solution is that every random player on Order should play on Montague level to have a chance? Meanwhile destro scrubs can do whatever semi-organized pugging with medicore movement and still win by default, because the other side is not playing on the highest possible top level 100% of the time?
You don't have to play at their level, but you can sure as hell learn from them... they don't do same mistakes other groups do, they adapt to what they face...

order don't even do that, you bring a spoon to gun fight then complain about everything else... instead of bring a gun to a gun fight and be on equal footing from the get go... instead you handicapping yourself then complain why are destro so OP...

Destro have slightly more choices, but they are also generally more selective in what they take... order pay zero respect to composition because they think its hopeless or are just lazy or worse ignorant.

The question shouldnt be why is destro OP... the question is why does some order groups do well, and why others do not? that is the big question, that is the balance question, that is composition and teamwork question... what is the differences and what can the other groups learn from the teams that do well and put into practice for themselves. But nobody wants to admit that other order groups are better than them because they put in some work to get where they are at.
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

User avatar
jbrutal
Posts: 76

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#85 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:46 pm

i notice there's a lot of new/bad players on order especially healers
never see healers kite and dps all spec aoe or dont know how to use assist

also sm spamming knockback and engies throwing mines this is the worse

also choppa pull is op interrupts healers who stay in spot casting

another thing IB and slayer both spec with both healing reduces destroys healers but slayers always spec aoe
Last edited by jbrutal on Tue May 05, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jtj5002
Posts: 91

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#86 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:48 pm

I can't believe this thread devolved from "order classes are unbalanced because order classes are ugly" to "order tanks are too small and big scary orcs are scary" right back to crying about morals like always. This thread is probably gonna get locked in 3, 2, 1...
Dok Mileycyruuus
BG Mileycyruus
Chosen Mileycyrusdad

User avatar
Aurandilaz
Posts: 1826

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#87 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:49 pm

dansari wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:34 pm


Thank you for proving the imbalances extend beyond the morale imbalance.
???

You can win same way on Order, you stack so much AoE pressure + burst that enemy dies within 10-20sec of fight start. For that you need 2-3 competent BWs, 2-3 competent Slayers, 2-3 competent WLs and maybe add 1 WH/ASW to the mix for extra ST burst.
Your Slayers will all get the Whispering Wind from 4 Sms, 4 Kotbs will provide +5 crit and +15% healing, and your WLs will be rotating interrupts on enemy healer stacks while going whirrrrrrl with WW up to such extent that we hopefully get 2nd "nerf AoE WL" thread some day. You don't wait for that onetrick pony BW m2 drop (which destro is not too dumb to see coming), you melt them faster then they can react back. Have Slayers run finisher spam with WW + mix of IDs + Rampage for some honestly gamebreaking levels of aoe dmg pressure followed by Retribution. My own screen starts to melt when my WSCT is trying to keep up with +10k aoe damage per sec numbers.
If the WLs are competent, they will have nuked first enemy healer within 2-3sec of fight start and moved to burst 2-3 others within 10 sec of combat initiation. By that time the Slayer train will be meeting with the backline heroes of Order and you get to focus dps/heals down hopefully with 2-3 fast moving assist trains picking their own victims and melting them with WL+SL+WH/ASW dmg burst combinations. All while the few BWs keep the enemy healers busy with their stupid high AoE dmg pressure.

Obviously none of this can be achieved with random selection of /5 order pug heroes or picking BWs who are afraid of pushing at frontlines or random Engis giving free stagger immunities or ranged SWs who are causing more dmg to their own team than on the enemy. With the amount of WLs+SL roaming in lakes and scs, considerably high number of Destro healers are running tons of armor talis, the question remains why do so many Order healers still insist on stacking willpower or wounds and then hoping to survive the inevitable rush of destro melee trains in cities. (while standing in a pile with other order healers...)

User avatar
Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 686

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#88 » Tue May 05, 2020 10:52 pm

Vayra wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:37 pm
dansari wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 9:29 pm
Please don't try to explain to me that there are just 23 wbs worth of destro that are more organized and assist better than order.

It's the truth. Destro organize for cities, order apparently don't. The results speak for themselves.
ive organised some city groups 12 hours inadvance

apparently the reason we win is because our classes are OP, and morale we rarely ever use is OP also (i wonder what the reason we won on order side is in this case :lol: these biased views )

not because i stack some of the best players around in some of the best setups possible at those times of day and we work together as a cohesive unit

then i end up playing lion king music on discord to troll a ex white lion player because the enemy as given up after 2 minutes and so much standing and waiting have to stay awake somehow :twisted:

and i am pretty sure other destro leaders (without the lion king part) do the same they stack high end players renown/gear/composition and maximise what they got available. Also high renown and gear doesnt also mean skill/awareness but it all adds up.

I can only say high end order guilds stack their composition ... but other order the results speak for themselves not stacking the right things or have some room for improvement which is fair enough the more exp you get the better you should become eventually.
Wamizzle Guild Leader [TUP]
Wamizzle Guild Leader [The Unlikely Plan]

Ads
Shooshpanzerer
Posts: 89

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#89 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:01 pm

Main reason - typical destro PuG is a bad melee train, while typical order pug is equally bad engie wall.

User avatar
kmark101
Posts: 328

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#90 » Tue May 05, 2020 11:14 pm

Wam wrote:
Tue May 05, 2020 10:52 pm

apparently the reason we win is because our classes are OP, and morale we rarely ever use is OP also (i wonder what the reason we won on order side is in this case :lol: these biased views )

not because i stack some of the best players around in some of the best setups possible at those times of day and we work together as a cohesive unit

then i end up playing lion king music on discord to troll a ex white lion player because the enemy as given up after 2 minutes and so much standing and waiting have to stay awake somehow :twisted:

and i am pretty sure other destro leaders (without the lion king part) do the same they stack high end players renown/gear/composition and maximise what they got available. Also high renown and gear doesnt also mean skill/awareness but it all adds up.

I can only say high end order guilds stack their composition ... but other order the results speak for themselves not stacking the right things or have some room for improvement which is fair enough the more exp you get the better you should become eventually.


I respect you a lot, but after so many years and threads you still don't understand that its irrelevant what the top 3% is doing and what matters is how the remaining 97% of the player base can play/adopt/win/etc..? It's great to look at the top and try to improve, but majority of the players will never be on your level on NEITHER SIDE and it's fine. Yet, somehow, destro players "play better" with the same basic skillset, assist better, having better comps, etc... don't you think that the problem might be with the comps themselves and what classes can bring to the table, how easy is to achieve the results with them? I get it, you don't use M2s when playing scrubs... (yet your healers are still in Focused Mind m2 after 10 seconds, just saying..)).

High end Order guilds? Is there any left who can still field a single full wb? As I said, I see one after another folds week by week (or simply lose interest) becuase they need to play on the absolutely top maximum to even have a chance against some semi organized destro wb who formed 3 weeks ago... not to consistently beat them, but to have a chance. And yes, they do win with morales, you might not need to use it with expert 24 players, but those 97% of destro warbands pump and drop morales like crazy and Order simply don't have tools to effectively answer to that, hence the guilds are giving up. I can't explain this better.

Of course sometimes things go well and the Order wb is more organized or plays better, thats why city siege result is 5:23 and not 0:28.
Gryyw - Ironbreaker

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 64 guests