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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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jonhyw
Posts: 36

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#161 » Wed May 06, 2020 2:50 pm

I see a lot of destro asking for 12 man for city. This is not happening on order side. Order allways try to fill 24man wb and with the lack of tanks you can see very unballanced wbs.
Destro small guilds with strong 6 man core fill with another 6 man, and they are competitive against order pugs.
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Vayra
Posts: 571

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#162 » Wed May 06, 2020 2:50 pm

wonshot wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:34 pm

I dont disagree Grunbe. But that respons seem to be catering more towards organized play, where as my last part of my post you are quouting I directed at what is happening in 24pug vs 24pug instances. As that is probably the main reason why the destro city isntance winrate is higher.

There is NO DOUBT that Order as a Realm in geneally speaking is not playing well enough though. Sure Destro might be easier to pug on, and have the advantage in archtype spread. But if the pug mentality (and **** even premades on order) were actually better familiar with assisting, some of those rag-tag rdps sw/engineer pug order instances could actually see some kills atleast instead of 5 napalms in one spot :roll:

Recruiting on Order is HARD though, and you will just have to trust me on that if you want :D The quality of engineers is terrible and they have no idea about reading a battle or focusing on controling a fight with their amazing toolkit, instead theyr have all been reading the Bitterstone guidebook and only know how to drop kegs and hug their turrets. I shouldnt had been able to revolutionize the class after dusting it off after I havnt played in back in DnD days, to show the current order population what engineer can do and everone being amazed about how a single engineer can win a fort push, let alone bring control and utility to orvr for orderwarbands. But none of the 1000 engineers on the server seem to know how to use the class, at all.

So have fun recruiting on Order, I DARE you to try it :D
24pug vs 24pug is a very rare occurence (unless you count warbands from /5 as pugs), probably in the low single digits per city on average. This is due to the fact that there are so many destro premades (of varying quality but at least decent composition) being formed that there aren't a lot of instances left for pure destro pugs to get into. When I solo queue on destro I either don't get in at all, or there is at least a 6 man, more commonly a 12 man or multiple 6 mans in as well. I honestly can't recall a single instance I've been in on destro where there was not at least 1 6 man group, but my sampling of solo queues is rather low as I generally go for a 6 man of friends or a group/wb from /5.

And judging by how city instance compositions generally are on order I'll take your word for the difficulty of recruiting there.
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R3xz
Posts: 103

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#163 » Wed May 06, 2020 2:51 pm

Since people are throwing in some input regard bad order composition in city. Perhaps I should provide some of my own data to back it up.

I've always queue 6 or 12 man on destro side, vast majority of it from /5 pickup group, I would say my group has stuck to a pretty tight 2-2-2 setup like 80% of the time. I think today was my 15th or 16th city run so far in the game.

So out of these runs I've encountered a 8/8/8 setup on order like 4 times max, with over half of our matchups order composition was either significantly lacking healers or tanks (sometimes seeing like 4 tanks or healers). Meanwhile I can only recall maybe 2 or 3 times where my pug WB was heavily skewed on our composition, vast majority of the time it's 8/8/8 or 7/8/9 but at the very worst we had at least 6 tank/heal/dps.

My experience pugging on destro side for city has yield a 75%+ winrate. All of our losses were against pug group that matched or had better composition than us.

All of this is anecdotal but take it as you will. I feel like composition matters so much like Wam described, good players can probably play well with skewed composition, but with even level of skill composition means so much it's not even fair when one side has it and the other don't.

Tankbeardz
Posts: 599

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#164 » Wed May 06, 2020 2:55 pm

"I shouldnt had been able to revolutionize the class after dusting it off after I havnt played in back in DnD days, to show the current order population what engineer can do and everone being amazed about how a single engineer can win a fort push, let alone bring control and utility to orvr for orderwarbands." --Bombling2020

I think that the main takeaway from thread is that Bombling revolutionized the engineer class.

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Verminus
Posts: 16

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#165 » Wed May 06, 2020 2:56 pm

So BW aside, are there any good classes on Order that won't violate the principles that prevent the best players from lowering themselves to play a WL? I mean, we can't ask the devs to remake the entire faction aesthetically and mechanically. We need realistic solutions to the perceived problems.

Hypernia
Posts: 102

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#166 » Wed May 06, 2020 3:20 pm

Verminus wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:56 pm
So BW aside, are there any good classes on Order that won't violate the principles that prevent the best players from lowering themselves to play a WL? I mean, we can't ask the devs to remake the entire faction aesthetically and mechanically. We need realistic solutions to the perceived problems.
Basically just run KotBS / SM / WL, Slayer, BW (Pick 2), WP, RP and be done with it.

There are spaces for some other classes to fit into warbands, but realistically there aren't enough coordinated, and repeatable groups with set strategies to actually execute that. Play the most basic meta and walk before you try to run.

Order probably needs more alliances because it doesn't have many / any guilds who can fill a full WB themselves atm.

jvlosky
Posts: 158

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#167 » Wed May 06, 2020 3:37 pm

Specialpatrol wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:27 pm
I'd look at hard data.

If one side consistently wins the overall score in City sieges (which is the best arena to judge warband vs warband play), then I'd look into possible class balance issues - instead of brushing it off with vague arguments, like "Order only plays rdps" or "Destruction tanks are cooler" or "Order lacks organization".

I don't know what that score is currently - but it at least seems like Destruction is generally pulling the longest straw in overall City wins. As an Order player, I personally can't recall the last time Order won a City overall, at least. So it would be interesting to some factual data on this.

If balance is fine, then the overall score should hover around 50-50, when viewed over time - irregardless if this or that specific fight were pugs vs organized etc.


100% This. Destro players with tiny pps are just scared that they wont be able to be carried by their class anymore with this whole 'Destro is just better than Order' bullcrap.

Overall the classes on Destro are better compared to their Order counterparts and can do more.

I wanna hear 1 person explain what KOTBS does better than Chosen besides having a 15% healing buff to group which is the only defense to Chosens 25% healing DEBUFF AURA.

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Stophy22
Posts: 339

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#168 » Wed May 06, 2020 3:37 pm

There are so many posts that already capture just about everything going on. I'd like to add that people play order vs destro because they might think themselves the underdog in a certain situation or might have never played (insert realm before) and never want to (sort of like myself)

I think a lot of it heavily relies on the fact of having fun. Whats fun in warhammer?

A.) Guarding and helping people live

B.) Healing and helping people live

C.) Dealing damage and killing people
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure all are acceptable answers but the problem with that is A,B, and C, have a different amount of people behind each answer
After you figure out what role you want you start to explore not only aesthetically but what each class can do.

D.) Destro Healer vs Order Healer

E.) Destro Tank vs Order Tank

F.) Destro Dps vs Order Dps

And I think the answer to D, E, and F are widely scewed by personal preference of people both educated about the game and people uneducated about the game.

Using myself as an example
Spoiler:
I play a destro tank because tanks are needed by my allies and its a role not always played well. You stand out to the correct group of people when you do well and it feels good. I play destro because I view order as an
Spoiler:
"easier side" This is an opinion dont @ me lol
and other factors and thus would like to play the more challenging side.

Even if I were to play order I probably wouldn't play a tank because of how shitty the options are and would probably gravitate toward the dwarf who can heal himself and kill people from safety or the wizard that only needs one ability to get more kills than I would ever care to need. Or probably a WL since its so free. The blatant negligence for how strong WL's are is a huge factor of why I don't want to step onto orders side. It's just too easy.
But all of this falls under opinions I've developed throughout playing warhammer and some facts/examples to backup or reinforce my opinions, and other people with like minded opinions. Obviously someone should step onto the other side to have knowledge of what they're facing, other than that I have no reason to play the side I dislike. I'm sure others view destro the same way I view order. Just throwing this way of thinking out there.
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Greenbeast
Posts: 278

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#169 » Wed May 06, 2020 3:52 pm

jvlosky wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 3:37 pm
Specialpatrol wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 2:27 pm
I'd look at hard data.

If one side consistently wins the overall score in City sieges (which is the best arena to judge warband vs warband play), then I'd look into possible class balance issues - instead of brushing it off with vague arguments, like "Order only plays rdps" or "Destruction tanks are cooler" or "Order lacks organization".

I don't know what that score is currently - but it at least seems like Destruction is generally pulling the longest straw in overall City wins. As an Order player, I personally can't recall the last time Order won a City overall, at least. So it would be interesting to some factual data on this.

If balance is fine, then the overall score should hover around 50-50, when viewed over time - irregardless if this or that specific fight were pugs vs organized etc.


100% This. Destro players with tiny pps are just scared that they wont be able to be carried by their class anymore with this whole 'Destro is just better than Order' bullcrap.

Overall the classes on Destro are better compared to their Order counterparts and can do more.

I wanna hear 1 person explain what KOTBS does better than Chosen besides having a 15% healing buff to group which is the only defense to Chosens 25% healing DEBUFF AURA.
15% outgoing aoe heal debuff
No escape M3
Solare Flare M4


And by no means it's the only defense against chosen 25% heal debuff.
You are not playing, well at least I hope not, in a warband that consist of 24 KotBS. A rune priest has a group wide 25% heal buff tactic that do stack with an ability of KotBS. As well a WP has 30% heal buff for him self upon taking damage. Add to this that a BW have a incoming heal debuff and a slayer that can surpass all block and parry of enemy front line.
The game isn't balances in class vs class. It's balanced around realm vs realm. You should try to look for a solution to your drafting problem in a wider perspective.

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Ekundu01
Posts: 229

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#170 » Wed May 06, 2020 4:07 pm

wonshot wrote:
Wed May 06, 2020 1:36 pm
But it brings me back to my initial question, WHY are Order so heavily stacked on RDPS and lack the archtype spread we see on destro? Can the community fix this, or do we need bigger dwarves, more armored slayers, and Witchhunter hats for all melee classes?
I think the major difference of why the average player is playing ranged vs melee on order is not the looks but the difference in when you get specific skills on those classes compared to destro melee classes. Also how order conducts themselves in the orvr lakes has a big factor on this too.

1. Order zergs much more in orvr you even see this in forts where they all run in a giant circle from flag to flag. Don't get me wrong destro does it too but i think order does it a lot more. Because of this style of game play and less small mans running around that destro seems to have a bit more of, the easy choice to zerg it up is a Rdps that can aoe to ride the zerg train to high RR and gear. Why play an aoe mdps that will not get a guard? I would suspect after players get out of t1 and start to encounter big boy orvr and get steam rolled as a mdps on order they promptly reroll a rdps if they are the average pug zerg surfer.

2. When players get skills due to the way our current tier bracket is i think this plays a big role in players sticking it out on some classes. Most of the ranged classes that are played on order are played for the aoe because everyone likes to see a bunch of numbers on the screen. The melee on each side gets aoe skills at different levels /specs that may lead players to reroll for an easier time in the lakes.

Lets look at mara and WL. Mara gets Demolition its 25 foot aoe in monstro spec at level 7 and aoe cone interrupt at 8. WL Slashing blade aoe same as demo they don't get till 30. The aoe interrupt WL gets needs to be speced for and can't possibly get it till 21 BUT most WL are not going to take that over Pounce at that level.

ASW vs MSH Hands down MSH is better as soon as they hit 21 and can pounce adding in all the aoe they get as well early on. ASW doesn't get shadowstep till much later on and has not that great of aoe in melee spec so most play ranged for aoe because numbers even if they are crappy they are numbers. rSH quick shooting is just as bad the damage is low but you can hit a lot of people with low crappy damage or you can play MSH and hit more people with much better numbers so it is a no brainer.

Slayer vs Choppa the differences are in the spec trees so we still see a healthy amount of both. But a lot of slayers play bad riposte 1v1 yolo builds because of terrible videos posted here and bring that nonsense to WB play where it doesn't do well.

Engie vs Magus i think the biggest issue between the two is size. Dwarf has the at low profile that allows them in keep defenses to stay mostly untargetable or they can hide in bushes and other nutty hiding spots that magus just can't blend in because they are on a big disk that screams TARGET ME. So you get a lot of engies that stick it out vs magus that usually give up before high rr and engie doesn't have as many flashy graphic effects from bullets being shot vs magus big red balls being thrown making it easy to see where it came from. Anyone who plays a magus knows you are being targeted all the time. I would put money on it that there are probably a lot more high RR geared engies vs magus on the shear fact it is easier to blend in and rake in the kills in the lakes.

The Excessive BWs i think has to do with the fact it is the only True dps caster order has. Destro has Sorc and Magus as a choice for a caster type class order only has one to pick from if you want to play a caster dps. BW also gets better aoe early on compared to sorc if you are specing in the conflag tree.

Having a lack of tanks is something that plagues both sides. Good tanks are hard to find and ones that actually do what they are supposed to do is even harder. 90% of the tanks on the server want to play off tank for pve or lol dps in rvr and most don't guard, challenge, or interrupt people. Most go running in aoe punting or giving out free immunities most of the time because again aoe numbers.

Reason behind the aoe nonsense is because it doesn't matter if you did 1 damage or 300 damage you hit the target you get some renown if that target dies. So people just want to throw aoe around.

A lot of why order has ranged over melee i think has to do with bad play exposure after t1. During the leveling process destro mdps have access to order mirror skills much earlier on. Where as order has better access to ranged aoe skills over the destro counter parts. A lot of players play what ever is the easier play style. These are also the same players that give up after getting wiped in a city a few times. Order gets most of the same mdps skills destro gets it just is not at the same levels meaning after getting knocked in a dirt over and over the players that want that easier time will reroll to something easier to play and in orders case that is ranged. Destro is no different it just has the opposite the ranged is harder to play vs the mdps so destro has excessive mdps.

The only way to fix it is a major rebalancing of skills/utility between classes. But that would cause a major uproar and would most likely not go through. Both sides need reworks to make some specs/classes viable in all settings but I doubt we will see that here. Just look at the thread that was reworked 3 times for tank morale overhauls that never came to pass.
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