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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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TreefAM
Posts: 676

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#271 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:12 pm

Nobody is stacking shamies or Msh, if you are getting obliterated by squigs it means you have garbage positioning, they do no dmg, they are annoying but dmg wise its all fluf aoe nonsense.
Also don't bother looking at dmg/healing in a city where you get stomped on, dead dps don't do dmg, so if it's a one sided city even the best BW on the server will be underpeforming if he keeps getting globaled the moment he pops his head around the corner.

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Nekkma
Posts: 722

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#272 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:19 pm

EsthelielSunfury wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am
Interesting bit there - it doesn't seem like Destro is having any of these issues by stacking the mirror class to SW and AM. I've seen 5 shamans in City, top healing, well ahead of our overbuffed WPs. Try doing that with 5 AMs and see if you survive longer than 5 secs.

I've seen plenty of mSH stacking and completely obliterating the backline in a matter of seconds with their mobility - SWs don't even get invited, let alone stack them to attempt to do anything useful.

All of this, really all of this doesn't spark any kind of question from Destro players as to why the opposition is basically working with 5 classes? (KotBS, BW, SL, WP, RP) You never ask where are the other 7 classes from premade groups?

Like you gotta be really faction biased at this point, or narrow-minded to not accept that the competition is simply not there in any even-numbered fight.
Every single class in this game has a spot in a pug vs pug wb, every single one. You just cannot stack useless or subpar classes and, above all, you need a 2/2/2 set up.

The only thing this thread has convinced me of is that a 65 percent winrate for destro in cities seems too low. Order still filling several instances with 24 soloquers means guaranteed loss for all those instances as destro has minimum a premade 12 + 6 man in every instance.
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emiliorv
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#273 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:22 pm

EsthelielSunfury wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am I've seen 5 shamans in City, top healing, well ahead of our overbuffed WPs. Try doing that with 5 AMs and see if you survive longer than 5 secs.
5 shamans and all them top healing?? could you provide a SS of that?? that comp looks like a "niche" for premade wb (not a /5 comp) probably for morale pump and FoG spam.

EsthelielSunfury wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 11:57 am I've seen plenty of mSH stacking and completely obliterating the backline in a matter of seconds with their mobility
again, looks like a "niche" comp for premade wbs => its the same like the stacking WL for pounce+whiling axe and totaly destroy destro backline... order already did that (iirc was secrets guild who made that).

stacking one class for some wb strategy only works when you do it ON PURPOSE with a clear tactic in mind...if you overstack 1 class because cant find any better and fill with "whatever random pug class you find" probably gonna lose VS any 2-2-2 compensated wb. and this is the same for the 2 factions, if you bring 5 random shamans into a city they will not be top healing and probably you will suffer the lack of dok/ze...

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Dalsie
Posts: 72

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#274 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:38 pm

Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:48 am
...

BW/SL/WL are your top dps picks, then you can bring in something niche in one spot imo. (Overstacking niche usually doesnt go well which is usually where order fail, too many AM, too many WH, too many Engi all in the same warband...)
Man, this guy. Just a few weeks ago I was reading a thread in which you were vehemently making a case for how useless WLs are in warbands. Now it's been proven otherwise and you adopt this stance of "I knew all along". Every word you type reeks of 'know-it-all syndrome'. Whatever.
Last edited by Dalsie on Fri May 08, 2020 12:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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EsthelielSunfury
Posts: 110

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#275 » Fri May 08, 2020 12:40 pm

I didn't say 8 mSHs, I said comparing to aSW they're getting into premades because their class is performing well enough to be invited. Same with shamans as opposed to AMs.

The question was - does any Destro player ask why their competition is playing with 5 classes? This concerns premades only, I don't wanna talk about solo queues, I've seen them.

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Wam
Posts: 803

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#276 » Fri May 08, 2020 1:30 pm

Dalsie wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 12:38 pm
Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 7:48 am
...

BW/SL/WL are your top dps picks, then you can bring in something niche in one spot imo. (Overstacking niche usually doesnt go well which is usually where order fail, too many AM, too many WH, too many Engi all in the same warband...)
Man, this guy. Just a few weeks ago I was reading a thread in which you were vehemently making a case for how useless WLs are in warbands. Now it's been proven otherwise and you adopt this stance of "I knew all along". Every word you type reeks of 'know-it-all syndrome'. Whatever.
You know there is a difference saying WL is bad in ORVR compared to BW/SL than WL is bad in city right? context is everything and also in comparison sake... compare WL now to AZA WL on steroids of the past a few years ago... you can cherry pick all you want, but guess who was using WL's in cities on order before it was the popular thing to do... oh yeah thats right I was, I took off the leash on them and let them rinse destro healers ... It took me one City to test things on order, to know it wasn't the players which was issue or DESTRO OP LOL, it was entirely composition and made major adjustments straight after, I didn't repeat same mistake multiple times for months, I didn't wait for somebody to tell me... I just instinctively knew that after test things needed to be fine tuned which meant less opportunities for some classes and more for others. Then beat every destro premade with our alts, and only lost when fought the best destro and had a subpar composition on that day. So i am hearing destro is op, but our alts beat them... I don't think our alts are that OP or we are that good... it means destro is not as OP as you think and needs more buffs :lol:

When on order in rvr you need to hit a critical mass point, and against melee zerg of destro... your MDPS is largely not going to be in the fight more often than not, and at keeps largely useless too and most the fights are like this then yeah saying WL is bad in ORVR in comparison to BW stack is true when you are fighting entire zone and looking to wipe the entire zone (a traditional bomb group much more joy in orvr, a wl group much more joy in city) Issue is you need pretty high level bw's and there's fewer and fewer these spread around. (Just rof spam dont cut it on BW in proper fights)

Know it all syndrome... if i knew it all why would i need to make tests? why would I swap 62.5% of the dps classes after just one run... Experience and strong opinions is different to know it all syndrome when tired of order blatant defeatism, when the tools to perform are right there just not used... prefer excuses to nerf or seperate enemy even more than currently to get ez wins.

As for 5 classes on order, SM/KOTBS/IB all got roles, same with WP/RP/ even AM ... BW/SL/WL are main damager dealers... then WH...
used SW and Engi didn't like in comparison (with work and better play maybe they too could have place but hard when you compare them to their rival bw/sl/wl )... that is 10/12 classes, Issue is skill level on some of them needs to be really high or literally no point to bring (AM)
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Dalsie
Posts: 72

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#277 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm

Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:30 pm ... You know there is a difference saying WL is bad in ORVR compared to BW/SL than WL is bad in city right? ...
... you can cherry pick all you want ...
...your MDPS is largely not going to be in the fight more often than not, and at keeps largely useless too and most the fights are like this then yeah saying WL is bad in ORVR in comparison to BW stack is true...
... guess who was using WL's in cities on order before it was the popular thing to do... oh yeah thats right I was ...

Ok, so WL are not good in RvR because mdps are largely useless (your words), but slayers are fine? Who really is the one cherry picking here... oh yea thats right you were...
Yea right, you were definitely the 1st to use WL in cities, only someone as enlightened as you could have such an epiphany. Did it come to you in a dream?

I really don't care about the destro/order debate. I actually agree with most of what you say, the realms are mostly balanced and Order's main problem organisation/attitude. I just pointed out that there are players who have deluded themselves into believing they have all the answers and know better than everyone else, so much so that they overlook or make excuses for contradicting themselves - exactly as you have.

You are knowledgeable and keep your posts non-hostile and you do attempt to backup what you say, but you are one of these players on the server who thinks the entire realm or playerbase would just be in complete shambles without your divine guidance. If i'm wrong I apologise, but i'm sure you will prove me right.
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CountTalabecland
Posts: 979

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#278 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:54 pm

Order can’t push. They are marginally decent at it to wipe a siege since all RDPS are safe on the wall. Order is entirely hopeless at pushing in pug scens. Nuff said
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/80) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/40) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/83) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Wam
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#279 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:02 pm

Dalsie wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm
Wam wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 1:30 pm ... You know there is a difference saying WL is bad in ORVR compared to BW/SL than WL is bad in city right? ...
... you can cherry pick all you want ...
...your MDPS is largely not going to be in the fight more often than not, and at keeps largely useless too and most the fights are like this then yeah saying WL is bad in ORVR in comparison to BW stack is true...
... guess who was using WL's in cities on order before it was the popular thing to do... oh yeah thats right I was ...

Ok, so WL are not good in RvR because mdps are largely useless (your words), but slayers are fine? Who really is the one cherry picking here... oh yea thats right you were...
Yea right, you were definitely the 1st to use WL in cities, only someone as enlightened as you could have such an epiphany. Did it come to you in a dream?

I really don't care about the destro/order debate. I actually agree with most of what you say, the realms are mostly balanced and Order's main problem organisation/attitude. I just pointed out that there are players who have deluded themselves into believing they have all the answers and know better than everyone else, so much so that they overlook or make excuses for contradicting themselves - exactly as you have.

You are knowledgeable and keep your posts non-hostile and you do attempt to backup what you say, but you are one of these players on the server who thinks the entire realm or playerbase would just be in complete shambles without your divine guidance. If i'm wrong I apologise, but i'm sure you will prove me right.
You don't know me that well, but I got RR 80 slayers in guild who have never played in a guild warband... same with the WL's also they are lucky to get spot and they understand this and reasoning... (LOL, even BIS highly skilled SL)

Nah I think there is many people on both sides who know what is up, but they are quiet and dont waste their time or energy on it like i do because it usually falls on deaf ears and is poisoned chalice (you come across a different way intended even when just trying to help) ... i tried to help improve both sides when weak, even helped with guides awhile back to help out beginners... when i first started i use to help people in advice chat alot also before advice chat was filled with too much bad advice it hurt to read. Eventually you get tired and frustrated of people's excuses and you call a spade a spade.

Best bomb group before use to be 8 BW, 7 BW 1 Engi (mag) or 7 BW - 1 SL ... (maybe 6 bw, 1 sl, 1 engi) but even slayer as a hard time competing in that enviroment it would be alone vs a red tide ... the positioning/decision making and movement would need to be very on point and in sync with warband leader and this was when shatter limbs was good pre nerf... now SL can hit 24 targets that changes things a little but they are still melee and lack morale aoe burst. (one pull from choppa, mara and they are most likely RIP) so for ORVR you either going to run "zerg buster" or "Warband Fighter" there is alot of similarities but some difference in the dps department (that is where melee get a look in for orvr and for cities its warband fighter 2.0)

There was one time but i wasn't active during this period when WL's was on steroids, so you could run 4 SL 4 WL (that was orders Melee train) ... a bit curious how that would work in current changes with SL hitting more, but order is not our mains, it will lack morale burst and ranged pressure to trim excessive numbers vs zerg, but in warband fight should be solid.

Life goes on regardless of my pressence or input that doesnt matter i've not been a ego driven leader... people being adamant that order is weak, destro is OP is what matters because I give factual proof that is incorrect and back it up... (there's a few things OP on both sides (not city related, more ORVR related)) that could easily be taken advantage of alot more than currently so and its a good thing they are not :lol:

When I talk about orvr i probably don't always clearly differentiate when i am talking ORVR zergbuster or warband killer... my mentality is mostly ORVR zergbuster as usually the most challenge as come from numbers, and that is the most fun / way to test self on big scale. When we last played order i was transforming from zerg buster into warband killer even though fights vs zerg more common and hard to get fights vs warbands like a couple of years ago. Warband killer can still kill zerg, just requires a bit more terrain use and other things, a more stagnated fight and not all at once so you can build momentum etc. Havent played order in couple months on grand scale, i know we would be semi capable of somethings if we brought the right composition... fights even more zergy and over faster now i think that counts against melee a little more (little time to build rage on sl, less space to operate for pouncing on wl)
Last edited by Wam on Fri May 08, 2020 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Secrets
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#280 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:08 pm

emiliorv wrote: Fri May 08, 2020 12:22 pm again, looks like a "niche" comp for premade wbs => its the same like the stacking WL for pounce+whiling axe and totaly destroy destro backline... order already did that (iirc was secrets guild who made that).
Captain's Log, Stardate 1337. I am so strong that I am a guild by myself now. The lions I tame have grown sentient and have cornered every shaman in the game by themselves. Not satisfied with the total enslavement of Destruction, I have turned my lions on Karl Franz and I am now self-proclaimed God-Emperor of Altdorf.

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