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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Mordd
Posts: 71

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#611 » Fri May 29, 2020 1:52 am

Omegus wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:45 pm
Mordd wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:26 pm
Omegus wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:49 pm
For those wondering about the LFG spam, this was LFG on destro between the lord dying and the queues opening. /5 is still going strong but I'm not going to copy and paste another 30 minutes of it.

https://pastebin.com/BaPvM5nS
Not sure what point you are trying to make here? it looks the same on order, its jsut on order you can at least always get pug city if nothing else, even down to the last minute.
People were mentioning order's /LFG isn't very active. Destro's one had 500 lines in 12 minutes, and that's not counting all the ones that happened after the queues opened.
Every time ive been on for city Order LFG is super spammed with people looking for city groups. As a 67 WL in full invader im passed over for higher rank players even.

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Nameless
Posts: 812

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#612 » Fri May 29, 2020 3:15 am

Orders lfg was quite full also, everyone was searching for tanks. Despite the effort to make 2/2/2 our pug wb leader queued with whatever at the end cos was quite impossible to find the needed tanks
Mostly harmless

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Martok
Posts: 1040
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#613 » Fri May 29, 2020 4:29 am

No, really, can you guys start all of this over? Cause I really think I missed something...

skinnyraf
Posts: 23

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#614 » Fri May 29, 2020 7:35 am

Nameless wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 3:15 am
Orders lfg was quite full also, everyone was searching for tanks. Despite the effort to make 2/2/2 our pug wb leader queued with whatever at the end cos was quite impossible to find the needed tanks
Ironically, I was in a PUG WB in TM another day and the party I was in had three WPs, two KotBS and an IB. We asked the leader to rearrange, and then realised that other groups were 2-3-1, either with three tanks or three healers and just single DPSes :)

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normanis
Posts: 547
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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#615 » Fri May 29, 2020 10:46 am

destro always win city sieges there is some balance isues for real. byt noone believe it maby i play on diferent server.

courtsdad1
Posts: 118

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#616 » Fri May 29, 2020 11:41 am

hammerhead wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 2:57 am
courtsdad1 wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 11:20 pm
Again, youre whining. Deal with it and stop pretending its mechanics. You admit as much above. You are not a victim no matter how many ways you try to reword it.
You put the carriage in front of the horse. Try to walk through the patch notes and see how many nerf were done under the pretext of the destro whining. For two months, here were at least 2 large threads with a nagging and suggestion to nerf one or another order class. It's just ridiculous. The order has a weak front line and overpopulated skirmish classes with the lack of WB spec, because no one wants to spend their time on a class that will be hit in the next patch, or will remain over the years with non-working trees. The problem was uncovered with the introduction of forts and there was the same talk. And now even people wear their characters, and this thread will be forgotten and game content in which so much effort has been invested will turn into a rudiment, because it is easy to assume that if it is difficult to form a balanced group now, then it will only get worse. You have to be very naive and childishly stupid thinking that from the entire playerbase there is some sort of magical separation of skill from the selected fraction.
Oh BS. Stop the whining. Avelorn last night was a glaring example of what is wrong with Order and certainly isnt nerf related. Sad that when people are called on the carpet in chat they become the vicitims of ridicule even though we not only couldn't take a keep with greater numbers and two wide-open posterns through four cycles of main oil, but got farmed hardcore. Nope, that was completely related to everything I mentioned earlier.

In a broader sense, welcome to MMO's. Constant change happens.

courtsdad1
Posts: 118

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#617 » Fri May 29, 2020 11:42 am

Foofmonger wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 3:34 am
Manatikik wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:21 pm
Bosli wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:17 pm
If some order players are still thinking that destro win just because they have so much better classes, maybe you should try checking out the time 10 minutes before the second fort falls, until city siege is up.
Destro /5 chat is spammed so hard by literally 98% of players either trying to fill their warband or find a warband that you have problems right-clicking someone's name.
Meanwhile, on order /5 - nothing. At least half of all instances are full pugs, others do their recruitment in discords and end up with only 12 or 18.

Sure, those "full pug" 24mans on destro aren't very strong - but at least they all go for a 2-2-2 setup, which is the reason they beat the order 14dps warbands every single time, and even have a chance beating some of the premade ones.
I think you're oversimplifying the root problem of WHY there are so many shitty set-ups for order. On destro all 3 tanks have a solid spot, on Order IB is useless in WB (outside of M2/Guard being there to just soak up damage); on Order there are 3 DPS classes that are WB appropriate with the ability to bring one CC Engi if you're doing a traditional BW stack where as on destro only WE is left out to dry (and less so than WH due to the stronger melee train on Destro can absorb the WE easier than Order can absorb a WH, typically). Healer wise both sides will need 4 WP/DoKs, Zealot is better than RP for cities (WoI is one of the two best morale drop counter abilities in the game, the other being Mara KD), and Shammy is 10x more accessible for City due to two things a) Waagh and Chop Fasta means you can have 100% uptime on Fury of Da Green without having to double up on a class and b) the morale pump is more easily put into the rotation every 5s without hurting your healing output and meshes better with destro's morale pumping abilities.

So this is why destro will win more instances just based on number of city viable classes dictates how many throw-away instances there are.
So going down this line of logic (not trying to argue, just to solution based on your problem statement), would your suggestions be as such (assuming viable implied order wb dps classes are slayer/bw/wl)

1. Somehow make IB wb viable.
2. Make Engie (and/or Magus) more attractive for cities?
3. Make SW roughly as WB viable as SH?
4. Somehow make AM/Runie more viable in comparison to their destro counterparts?
5. Make WH/WE more attractive for cities?

If so (and I suppose if not so), do you believe that the crux of the issue is direct "underpoweredness" (i.e. order classes need raw buffs), a misplacement of realm wide viability (i.e. some order classes are overstacked versus others being understacked with relevant functionality), and/or a lack of access to specific synergies/stragies (in terms of cd reduction and AM/Shamans for example).

Follow up question: Assuming the order classes were somehow made viable. Can it be done in such a way that doesn't "turbocharge" their current top-tier synergy strategies? As in, do you think it is possible to fix the issue without having to potentially nerf other Order synergies/stratgies?
And you are exaggerating about "so many
shitty " set ups because its not the problem at all.

Hypernia
Posts: 102

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#618 » Fri May 29, 2020 1:38 pm

1. Somehow make IB wb viable.
Probably isn't possible given the skills it has and what SM can bring to the table

2. Make Engie (and/or Magus) more attractive for cities?
Magus is already fine because spirit debuff and it actually does good aoe damage because all magical. Change Engi aoe debuff to elemental resist and it wins a spot because BW synergy

3. Make SW roughly as WB viable as SH?
This is only possible in ASW spec, and would involve giving them even more tools which would make it broken op in small scale

4. Somehow make AM/Runie more viable in comparison to their destro counterparts?
RP is fine because of +healing output synergy with WPs. AM is max 1 in WB ideally, and would need significant changes to break that synergy

5. Make WH/WE more attractive for cities?
Revert the Razor Strike / Slice "fix", upscale it to 9 targets (with room to go further based on feedback)

The biggest problem for most classes is they don't bring anything to synergise with the better classes. E.G WP / KotBS / RP heal output buffing

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hammerhead
Posts: 139

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#619 » Fri May 29, 2020 1:45 pm

courtsdad1 wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 11:41 am
Oh BS. Stop the whining. Avelorn last night was a glaring example of what is wrong with Order and certainly isnt nerf related. Sad that when people are called on the carpet in chat they become the vicitims of ridicule even though we not only couldn't take a keep with greater numbers and two wide-open posterns through four cycles of main oil, but got farmed hardcore. Nope, that was completely related to everything I mentioned earlier.

In a broader sense, welcome to MMO's. Constant change happens.
Friend, you missed a little. It's not me who comes to the forum every time my character is wiped in 2.5 seconds. It’s your green-skinned brothers who produce post in General, sweeping the ashes of lions or BW. And with the order, everything is fine and people are doing everything right. People went to what is still working and then all these endless engineering troops dress at least in the warlord, half of the destruction will not see the city at all.
(\|)o0(|/)

PressMe
Posts: 3

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#620 » Fri May 29, 2020 7:05 pm

normanis wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 10:46 am
destro always win city sieges there is some balance isues for real. byt noone believe it maby i play on diferent server.
Yes and order always win keeps unless heavily outnumbered.

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