Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.
Posted: Mon May 25, 2020 7:45 pm
The War Private Server
Destro needs to stop peddling the completely unsubstantiated lie that Order somehow has an advantage in ORvR. Destro still has the class advantage, it's just not a cakewalk for you.emiliorv wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 7:19 amI wonder why this kind of topics come up after city was implemented and no one said anything when forts was "endgame content"...everything was fine when you had the advantage getting endgame gear...Omegus wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 11:59 pmAlmost everybody when not spending the hour in the city every 1-2 days. The majority of the time is spent fighting over keeps and forts, meaning the majority of the time destro are having a **** time. Not everyone is RR70 and in full invader ready to farm Sovereign.
No offense but you have no idea what you're talking about and it's clear you've never played Order to even a medium rank.Omegus wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 4:31 pmSW: bring an Assault Shadow Warrior. They are terrifying when played properly, output silly amounts of ST damage.
IBs: absolutely fine. almost on-demand outgoing heal debuff, knockdowns, a good armour debuff. A great option for the melee train guards due to the buffs they throw out.
Engi: no arguments here. One if your WB wants to magnet is fine, but you need to be able to drop whatever gets pulled in.
WH: you bring it for the morale drain
AM: Yes there are plenty of pooly specced AMs out there, but that doesn't mean the class is bad. I remember Bombling lamenting that they couldn't find any morale pump AMs for one city siege WB... plenty of AMs, just none willing to respec. This is a player issue, not a class issue.
It's 20% and requires a defense. So it typically won't be up in the first few seconds of engage unless you sacrifice positioning. Bad Destro will trigger WP defenses with no payoff. Better to avoid hitting WP unless you intend to train them and set them back. Likewise heal output isn't the only limiting factor in WP/DOK heals, and both have over 5-6 tactics that boost survivability/healing/regen to some degree. Exalted Defenses does not stand out at all other than the "high" people get from seeing big silly numbers.Greenbeast wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 5:53 pmYou've forgotten 30% self healing buff on WP and 15% healing buff on the kotbs and the fact that you can run 15% outgoing heall debuff on Kotbs. So no a single Chosen aura is t disabling your potential healing.
As for M2 every tank that uses M2 can't bomb you. Since good and not Warbands run 2h tanks they will be out of sinc or a warband must wait for them. Most of them will use raze that can be interrupted or syphoned.
In 2018-2019 any destro warband that would go out without a dps zealot and marauder would have been burned to ashes with morale drop of 7 bws. I haven't seen you complaining. You've just played the meta with overstacking bws and destruction was forced to get an unpopular DPS zealot and bring a couple of marauders to be able to compete.
You need an AM. It's hard to find but it's meta.
BW >Sorc in AOE, sorc > BW in single target. its different is all really. BW is better at defending, keeps, forts. Melee pile is better for city, which is what the devs are centering the game around.Vayra wrote: ↑Sat May 16, 2020 2:36 pm
The problem order has is that almost half their roster is underperforming, while a good chunk of the other half is overperforming. BWs > Sorcs, WPs > DoKs (in terms of healing), RPs have better survivability than Zealots , KotBS provides better buffs than Chosen. So the balance is there, order players just aren't playing enough of the stronger classes. They'd rather play the weak engineers or SWs instead of BWs, Slayers or WLs.
While destro has more options, the best possible setup for a wb is still on Order side.
I think the default answers from destro are.Omegus wrote: ↑Sun May 24, 2020 6:07 pm
I mean, you've kinda just agreed with me when I said it's easier to be disorganised on destro than it is order in cities. On the other hand, attacking keeps and forts (esp forts) as disorganised destro is far harder. Months and years of nerf BW/Engi threads that only went silent with cities were introduced. BW/Engi continue to be the same defensive powerhouses but at the moment all anyone can look at is the shinies in the city.
If we make it easier for disorganised destro to have an advantage in cities then we need to rebalance this all the way down to each point of rvr. The destro melee zerg finally got a game mode where it was at an advantage
Greenbeast wrote: ↑Mon May 25, 2020 9:39 pm
No destro premades run any pumps on DPS or Healers except WE these days. Letting your shamans run a morale pump is reducing their survivability and healing output. Making your warband an easy pray for order melee train.
You can play with morales as win condition but you will be kited and order win late morale game because of SF and BH.
Every premade run at least two to three two- handers and snb chosens run M2 rotation it leaves you with 4 tanks with a morale pump and an offensive morale. Then you run a choppa and a squig that don't have any useful morale. So yes if morale drop isn't perfectly synchronized it will denied by syphons.
After 1 min Info a fight everybody have morales.
Your entire post is making counter points to arguments and comparisons that I didn't make. When looking at what you can bring to cities, look at what you can bring to cities. Order cannot bring a MSH to do MSH things, but it can bring an ASW to do ASW things. When looking at what outgoing heal debuffs your order warband can bring, the Blackguard having an ability with a 0s cooldown doesn't change what you bring as you can't bring a Blackguard anyway.