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Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

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uanaka
Posts: 166

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#11 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:35 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:31 pm
Vayra wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:20 pm
I think the “its endgame so you should grp” argument falls apart when bringing an organized warband often turns into pulverizing pugs and PvE for free royals crests. Its endgame content so shouldn’t you actually be challenged?

I think PuG/Organized needs to be separated or ability to queque PuG/solo needs to be removed. Most of the royals I have come from times where we just murdered the other side and I got to free dps for an hour and profit while not even trying.

The problem is that most city matches are just slaughters one way or the other with no real challenge after the first fight at mid decides who is stronger.
How do you define pug vs premade though? Is a 12 man a premade? A 6 man? Also, is a full warband from /5 a premade? It's in no way comparable to a guild/alliance premade so if they count as a premade you're discouraging people from putting in effort and encouraging them to go solo. Also how would you deal with an imbalance of premades? If order has 3 premades but destro 5, do you just not give 2 destro premades pops? Or do you put them in against pugs anyway? In that case, why separate at all?
Yes, anything other than auto-queque like a pug scen. So long as its 6 man or larger and 2,2,2 would mostly fix the issue
So you're saying a 6 man, who gets backfilled with potentially 18 pugs, should go up against a 24 man guild/alliance premade and that would be fair?

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Wam
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#12 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:37 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:20 pm
I think the “its endgame so you should grp” argument falls apart when bringing an organized warband often turns into pulverizing pugs and PvE for free royals crests. Its endgame content so shouldn’t you actually be challenged?

I think PuG/Organized needs to be separated or ability to queque PuG/solo needs to be removed. Most of the royals I have come from times where we just murdered the other side and I got to free dps for an hour and profit while not even trying.

The problem is that most city matches are just slaughters one way or the other with no real challenge after the first fight at mid decides who is stronger.
I think its end game so you should bring your BEST... and you do get challenged usually when your setup is sub par and harder to carry vs similar opposition, the issue is lack of higher end opposition on order LOB/MONT ... VII/Beavers ... then maybe frenchies and thundercats? Is this orders current top 5? theres a difference between 1 and 2 and 3, and even bigger difference between 1 -4-5 ... now insert rest of order.

Its not like destro try to que avoid people, they look to fight and who you get paired with is on system... and you think a magic pug button would fix the problem which is a player made or leader made problem of bad composition? no it will not... because who do all the destro premades fight? empty pve instance? they need opposition, and opposition to raise game. A rising tide lifts all boats, order just need to improve their competitiveness which will make it more fun for everyone, but feels like order alergic to this and prefer to drag down instead of rise up.

If i was bringing 8 bgs, 6 welf 6 magus and 4 shaman compositions i expect to be trashed also... but destro very rare will have broken instance like this because they are stacking composition to increase chances of win, order are not stacking what they need.
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Vayra
Posts: 567

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#13 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:39 pm

CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:31 pm
Vayra wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:20 pm
I think the “its endgame so you should grp” argument falls apart when bringing an organized warband often turns into pulverizing pugs and PvE for free royals crests. Its endgame content so shouldn’t you actually be challenged?

I think PuG/Organized needs to be separated or ability to queque PuG/solo needs to be removed. Most of the royals I have come from times where we just murdered the other side and I got to free dps for an hour and profit while not even trying.

The problem is that most city matches are just slaughters one way or the other with no real challenge after the first fight at mid decides who is stronger.
How do you define pug vs premade though? Is a 12 man a premade? A 6 man? Also, is a full warband from /5 a premade? It's in no way comparable to a guild/alliance premade so if they count as a premade you're discouraging people from putting in effort and encouraging them to go solo. Also how would you deal with an imbalance of premades? If order has 3 premades but destro 5, do you just not give 2 destro premades pops? Or do you put them in against pugs anyway? In that case, why separate at all?
Yes, anything other than auto-queque like a pug scen. So long as its 6 man or larger and 2,2,2 would mostly fix the issue.

And yes those 2 should be excluded rather than winning the competition lottery against pugs. That’s why forts have caps and exclude overpopulated realm. Go play the underdog.
This kind of mentality is why order can't organize. You'd rather punish people who make the effort to organize than put in any effort yourself. City is end game, get your ass organized or don't complain.
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CountTalabecland
Posts: 519

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#14 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:42 pm

uanaka wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:35 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:31 pm
Vayra wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:27 pm


How do you define pug vs premade though? Is a 12 man a premade? A 6 man? Also, is a full warband from /5 a premade? It's in no way comparable to a guild/alliance premade so if they count as a premade you're discouraging people from putting in effort and encouraging them to go solo. Also how would you deal with an imbalance of premades? If order has 3 premades but destro 5, do you just not give 2 destro premades pops? Or do you put them in against pugs anyway? In that case, why separate at all?
Yes, anything other than auto-queque like a pug scen. So long as its 6 man or larger and 2,2,2 would mostly fix the issue
So you're saying a 6 man, who gets backfilled with potentially 18 pugs, should go up against a 24 man guild/alliance premade and that would be fair?
It would be filled with three other 6 mans. All I can ask for is 2,2,2.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/77) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 519

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#15 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:45 pm

Wam wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:37 pm
CountTalabecland wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 2:20 pm
I think the “its endgame so you should grp” argument falls apart when bringing an organized warband often turns into pulverizing pugs and PvE for free royals crests. Its endgame content so shouldn’t you actually be challenged?

I think PuG/Organized needs to be separated or ability to queque PuG/solo needs to be removed. Most of the royals I have come from times where we just murdered the other side and I got to free dps for an hour and profit while not even trying.

The problem is that most city matches are just slaughters one way or the other with no real challenge after the first fight at mid decides who is stronger.
I think its end game so you should bring your BEST... and you do get challenged usually when your setup is sub par and harder to carry vs similar opposition, the issue is lack of higher end opposition on order LOB/MONT ... VII/Beavers ... then maybe frenchies and thundercats? Is this orders current top 5? theres a difference between 1 and 2 and 3, and even bigger difference between 1 -4-5 ... now insert rest of order.

Its not like destro try to que avoid people, they look to fight and who you get paired with is on system... and you think a magic pug button would fix the problem which is a player made or leader made problem of bad composition? no it will not... because who do all the destro premades fight? empty pve instance? they need opposition, and opposition to raise game. A rising tide lifts all boats, order just need to improve their competitiveness which will make it more fun for everyone, but feels like order alergic to this and prefer to drag down instead of rise up.

If i was bringing 8 bgs, 6 welf 6 magus and 4 shaman compositions i expect to be trashed also... but destro very rare will have broken instance like this because they are stacking composition to increase chances of win, order are not stacking what they need.
Pug v. Pug is not my ideal solition. To me there should be no pugging. But that’s assuming with either go with pug v pug or premade only, not stay at the current inbetween we do have.

I wish Order would magically play better too but its been a decade and clearly it wont be happening organically.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/77) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Martok
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Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#16 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:06 pm

jaxamillian wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:30 am
As a mainly solo player I always pug for cities, unfortunately 90% of the time we face up vs perfect premades.

Haven't you heard? As clearly stated right here on these very forums by one of the upper echelon the fact you play as a pug renders you meat for the grinder, and nothing more.

jaxamillian wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:30 am
Love the server and appreciate you guys, but pugs vs pugs would be great :)

It would.

But your only actual option is "get good" or something. Or "learn to play" scrub. Or play the game in the exact manner someone else wants you to play it in otherwise even if you were in a guild or alliance you would immediately be kicked from that guild or alliance if certain someones saw you playing in a manner you actually enjoy.


Typically I deal in satire. But on this occasion every word I transcribed above are exact declarations taken from responses to this exact proposal the first time it came up.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 207

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#17 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:28 pm

Wam wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pm
Aethilmar wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:30 pm
A completely random queueing matching system would certainly alleviate some of the PUG vs premade issues and the meta vs non-meta issues while not addressing the population issues.

However, as noted this is an MMO and a gear grind MMO at that. The established guilds (side doesn't matter) don't actually want "fair" matches. They want to maintain easy farms for gear. Gloating about crushing PUGs or non-meta groups is just a bonus.
yeah thats why we went order to face all destro premade guilds with our alts and balance things out (when most wasnt even in vanq gear), meanwhile letting order groups gear up and get a advantage over our destro chars :lol:

I like consistencey and fairness... are cities enjoyable? yeah when they are even and you actually have to work for it and can be eitherway... but they more inconsistent on destro side because of order put zero effort into making groups... im not going to complain about beating a group that is going to bring broken composition, i am not going to gloat about it either, no need to gloat period... you can only beat whats infront of you just like in orvr.

"fair matches" would be pugs that get roflstomped learning from mistakes and atleast trying to improve their compositions and teamwork and try improve their level of play...

Why do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...
Any desire most guilds have for fairness only extends as far as the occasional match where they get some actual competition but, most importantly, they still win. If they actually had a 50/50 split they would see a marked drop in participation.

But nowhere did I say guilds are "the big bad guys". I said they were (on any given run) more interested in pursuing easy farms for gear over actual competition. This is actually perfectly rational behavior given the system and is a staple of MMO systems with gear advantages.

dirnsterer
Posts: 145

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#18 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:34 pm

It is already so lenient system, like you get something from even losing. And sometimes even more than from winning if you are lucky. People used to play with system where if your city got attacked, you were not seeing royal crests at all even if enemy lost. And if you failed an attack you were not seeing royals / sov either, and that counted in whole realm.

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CountTalabecland
Posts: 519

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#19 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:39 pm

dirnsterer wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 3:34 pm
It is already so lenient system, like you get something from even losing. And sometimes even more than from winning if you are lucky. People used to play with system where if your city got attacked, you were not seeing royal crests at all even if enemy lost. And if you failed an attack you were not seeing royals / sov either, and that counted in whole realm.
The ability to profit from losing is what draws pugs anyhow bc they can join pug, get wrecked and contribute nothing and walk out with Royals. Sames goes for premades who walk all over pugs, join, do nothing except 1 stomp at the beginning profit.

Cities as a whole right now are free gwar piñatas. Get em while you can I guess.
Brynnoth Goldenbeard (40/74) (IB) -- Rundin Fireheart (40/50) (RP) -- Ungrinn (40/35) (Engi)-- Bramm Bloodaxe (40/77) (Slayer) and a few Empire characters here or there, maybe even an elf.

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Wam
Legacy RR80
Posts: 633

Re: Any chance for pugs vs pugs in Cities?

Post#20 » Fri May 08, 2020 3:50 pm

Aethilmar wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 3:28 pm
Wam wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:41 pm
Aethilmar wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 1:30 pm
A completely random queueing matching system would certainly alleviate some of the PUG vs premade issues and the meta vs non-meta issues while not addressing the population issues.

However, as noted this is an MMO and a gear grind MMO at that. The established guilds (side doesn't matter) don't actually want "fair" matches. They want to maintain easy farms for gear. Gloating about crushing PUGs or non-meta groups is just a bonus.
yeah thats why we went order to face all destro premade guilds with our alts and balance things out (when most wasnt even in vanq gear), meanwhile letting order groups gear up and get a advantage over our destro chars :lol:

I like consistencey and fairness... are cities enjoyable? yeah when they are even and you actually have to work for it and can be eitherway... but they more inconsistent on destro side because of order put zero effort into making groups... im not going to complain about beating a group that is going to bring broken composition, i am not going to gloat about it either, no need to gloat period... you can only beat whats infront of you just like in orvr.

"fair matches" would be pugs that get roflstomped learning from mistakes and atleast trying to improve their compositions and teamwork and try improve their level of play...

Why do you try paint guilds are the big bad guys? when its the stubborn/ignorance/laziness of pugs who want to be competitive without putting in any work... if destro pugs can do it, why not orders...
Any desire most guilds have for fairness only extends as far as the occasional match where they get some actual competition but, most importantly, they still win. If they actually had a 50/50 split they would see a marked drop in participation.

But nowhere did I say guilds are "the big bad guys". I said they were (on any given run) more interested in pursuing easy farms for gear over actual competition. This is actually perfectly rational behavior given the system and is a staple of MMO systems with gear advantages.
I actually wanted to fight everyone atleast once both sides... I want to fight thundercats but they usually was alot later than us queing, besides them im not sure who we havent fought tbh, maybe cntk? bitterstones? but that would be for old times sake.

I would like to fight LOB when we both have proper setups but sod's law say they will get us when we are not close to full strength.

I instant que for a reason (or try too when people do not slack) not afraid of any challenge, you have to fight everybody sometime

The hardest part is first getting people online at retarded hours which puts pressure on composition... then fighting something equal
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